dwell issues....

[Badger]

I know this is burned out but....everyone says different so I dont know what to use. Some say 12 or 14 while others say 8 to 10.
some say 14 is way to high and others say 8 is way too low. So What is the optimal dwell for the speeds? I want a very quiet angel, but also very accurate, consistant, and efficient. I may have to choose the more important ones. I know this is repetitive, but maybe we should sticky a dwell thread so everyone can post info in one place and everyone can find the info, instead of tidbits being spread out over 10 other threads.

[MooShoo1717]

Okay... Im not quite sure about everything here so if someone could varify what i am saying. I Think that with a higher dwell you get less efficiancy and it is more quiet. No matter the dwell i would assume consistency and accuracy the same. Also The higher the dwell you have less chance of breaking more brittle paint. So.. If you want an efficient gun then go for a low dwell that you wont break paint at. (it depends on the paint) The quietness factor i am pretty sure a higher dwell would make it go down but im not sure so maybe a lower dwell would help that to. From what i have heard most people get there dwell as low as possible without breaking paint.

[N_R_Z]

Okay... Im not quite sure about everything here so if someone could varify what i am saying. I Think that with a higher dwell you get less efficiancy and it is more quiet. No matter the dwell i would assume consistency and accuracy the same. Also The higher the dwell you have less chance of breaking more brittle paint. So.. If you want an efficient gun then go for a low dwell that you wont break paint at. (it depends on the paint) The quietness factor i am pretty sure a higher dwell would make it go down but im not sure so maybe a lower dwell would help that to. From what i have heard most people get there dwell as low as possible without breaking paint.

I agree with u on the consistency and accuracy being the same. What u forgot to mention is that if u lower the input pressure from or reg to ur gun, then u need to set ur dwell higher. With more pressure behind the ball, the valve needs to be open for a shorter time, so a lower dwell. It's not the higher dwell that will make for a quieter gun, it's the lower pressure(which requires a higher dwell). I think, but am not sure, that lower pressure will give u less efficientcy. Your dwell depends on the imput pressure to ur gun higher pressure=lower dwell, lower pressure=higher dwell. If u are running ur gun at 350 u should have dwell set at 8 or 10 if u have the volumizers and are running super low pressure u need to up your dwell to 14. I hope this makes sense(and is correct).
-Nick

[boozy]

wow, I didn't think you could get any more wrong...

here goes:

your dwell is the amount of time the valve stays open for each shot. A low dwell such as 8ms will give the best use of air and a very quiet gun. In turn, the marker will need a higher input pressure to make up for the lack of volume of air. Don't let this scare you, they even eachother out. The downside of low dwell is it's toleration to brittle or dimpled paint. I haven't personally broken paint at 8ms dwell, so I presume you need an improper barrel/paint match, or just generally crappy paint.

your input pressure (around 300psi with stock angel speed at 8ms dwell) coexists with the dwell. higher dwell = lower pressure. so it's really a choice of wanting to have a quiet effecient marker, or one that runs lower pressure. I haven't tried yet, but I'm sure with a 19ms dwell, you would be running significantly lower pressure than at 8ms.

I would recommend running the lowest dwell you can get away with. I feel it's more important than input pressure, simply because I like quiet markers that don't eat up air. Although, I have not been convinced that higher dwell eats up more air, since the input pressure is lowered as the dwell is raised, that would mean the same volume of air would be present. Perhaps it evens it's self out, perhaps not.

[CpCnCir3]

boozy, im pretty sure u just repeated what NRZ just said. he said that the higher the dwell the lower the pressure and visa versa. in other words he was saying how they balance eachother out which is what u just repeated. anyways about the noise factor. some say higher dwell = less noise and some say the higher the dwell the higher the noise. im pretty sure the higher the dwell the quieter it is because you have to turn down the OP to get back down to normal velocity. turning down your OP makes it quieter. an impulse works off this principal of balancing dwell and OP. you can choose your OP of 150-200 then set your dwell accordingly to shoot 280fps. all i know is an impulse running off of 150 IS quieter and easier on brittle paint BUT its not nearly as air efficient. same goes with the speed. i say the perfect balance for efficiency/low pressure is 12ms dwell. its not too high not too low. if u are looking to maximize your air efficiency run 10 ms. if u are wanting to lower your OP as much as possible use 14ms.

[captncrunch]

Ok, lets say you're shooting 290 fps with an 8 ms dwell, then you turn your dwell up to 15, the gun is going to be a lot louder, that because it will be shooting at an extremley high velocity, you will be well into the 300s. To get it lower, you adjust your input pressure from you minireg, you now have a low presseure/high vollume gun that will be more quiet. You need the huge volumizers when you run the gun like this because more air is needed since it's running at a lower pressure.

[MooShoo1717]

Im impressed. We have a good conversation going here.

[boozy]

I'm honestly not 100% sure that higher dwell causes noise..I am just repeating the manual. I think I agree with what capncrunch said. I will test all this out tomorrow (saturday) when I go and play.

[pntbalmatt]

i can tell you for sure that a higher dwell will make the gun quieter. Yay physics! Dwell is based upon the simple notion of impulse, or a force over time (I=FT). To do equal amounts of work on an object (stopping or accelerating, for example) equal impulses must be applied. However, the forces and the times need not be equal. A small force over a long time will do the same amount of work as a great force over a short time, provided each situation's force x time is equal.
Noise levels can be explained by impulse... think of cars. If one car stops by slamming into a wall, you have a great force over a short time. When you bring a car to a stop at a light with the brakes, you use a small force over a greater time. The first case sees a large, sudden transfer of energy, while the second sees a slow, gentle transfer. Soundwaves are just transfers of energy from some object into the air; a small force over a greater time will cause less of a 'crash' (sound).

...:nerd:

p.s. this law does not apply to autocockers or shockers, which, by the same method they use to shoot farther than any other guns on the planet, ignore the laws of physics.

[warpedx]

Big dwell = little noise
Little dwell = big noise

[kissmyglock]

pntbalmatt has got my vote for thred of the month!:clap:

[pntbalmatt]

I think i am just fated to be a nerd. My initials are MG... any Newtonian physics student will tell you how often they run across that one. Now to marry my first born daughter, Martha Giarra, off to Mr. SinOfTheta.

[EZE]

Well now you're going to make me check the manual.......................And there it is on page 13 "Longer dwell uses more gas and generates pressure variables. Shorter dwell uses less gas and reduces noise, but is less tolerant of poor quality paint the range available is 8-19 milliseconds."

What "pressure variables" mean I'm not sure. I guess it means you can lower pressure.

I run mine at 10. For grins, I turned it up to 11, planning on lowering the pressure at the mini-reg. To my suprise I could not chrono below 300 so back to 10. I had a preset on and will try messing with the dwell again with volumizers and a Conquest. FYI I just ordered some Xsystem volumizers from there website. They look pretty good and seem fairly large without looking huge and are on sale for 9.95.

I'm also curious when to lower the LPR pressure.

[kissmyglock]

Manual assumes that you are using the mini reg. If you are not your in put can be lower. Lets say max flow or angel air, you can run 100-300 psi in to your LPR. Your dwell will have to be higher. If you run a pre set lets say 450-850 you will have to run it with the mini reg to get it down as not to blow up your solenoid. If you run a gas through grip (gut the mini reg) you input can be lower Less air will be more quite. I run 250 in to the LPR from my max flow with dwell at 10 I can here the marker fire but those around me say it’s more quite then a matrix.Every marker is different(works for me)

[napnap]

This is a very interesting thread. Here's my take on it: the higher dwell the more noise the gun will generate. The lower the dwell the less noise the gun will generate.

The noise of the valve closing is insignificant to the overall noise of the gun. Almost all the noise made by a paintgun is the result of the air being vented down the barrel. This is why having longer barrels or barrels with a lot of porting will greatly quiet a paintgun. Turning your dwell up increases the amount of air to be vented , thus making more noise. Turning it down, less noise.

Another variable that hasn't been discussed yet is the LPR pressure. This will also inversely affect dwell amd operating pressure.

[SkeL]

Originally posted by EZE
page 13 "Longer dwell uses more gas and generates pressure variables. Shorter dwell uses less gas and reduces noise, but is less tolerant of poor quality paint the range available is 8-19 milliseconds."

THANK YOU :clap: Finally someone gets it right.

[pntbalmatt]

how could a higher dwell increase noise? that just doesnt make sense! look at extreme situations. If you have a small leak in your gun and over the course of an hour leak out the air it would take to fire one paintball, there is very little noise. If you fire the marker with that same amount of air, released in a matter of miliseconds in this case, there is a loud "bang." Even if more air is leaked during that hour than it takes to fire a paintball, the noise is still barely audible. The longer the valve is open, if there is less air flowing through per unit of time, the quieter the gun has to be. It doesn't make any sense that the gun would get louder by making the valve stay open longer, and then somehow get quieter by keeping it open for an even longer time (i.e. a leak). If the velocity of the escaping air were the same in both dwell cases, the only difference in sound would be the duration of the noise, not the amplitude. However, this is not the case; when you lower the dwell, you decrease the velocity of the escaping air to keep your paintballs' velocity consistent.

Am I missing something?

[boozy]

Lets throw the LPR into the mix here also. Does anybody know what raising or lowering the pressure really does? I had no clue what did on my LCD, and I have no clue what it does on my speed.

[EZE]

As soon as I get my volumizers on I'm going to play with the LPR pressure. I'm going to try it at 65 and then mess with the input pressure and dwell to see what the results may be; quieter, smoother, nothing at all ????

[MooShoo1717]

Okay guys before we go on we have to lay the facts down. Do you guys agree that....
Higher Dwell Lower Dwell
more quiet gun louder gun
less gas effeciancy better gas effeciancy
more gentle on paint harder on paint

Now... if you think changes should be made speak up and after we get these facts stated that we agree lets through the LPR and output pressure from tank and stuff into the mix.

[MooShoo1717]

Hmmmm.. The spacing didnt turn out the same as when i typed it but its supposed to be in colums under the higher and lower dwell. Do you guys got it?

[MooShoo1717]

Maybe we could get a tech in here that could lay it down... Frazer.... Ken.... Ron maybe...

[boozy]

that's what I was hoping..I'm sure somebody has some hard core facts for us.

[Badger]

yeah mooshoo I think you have it right.
So guys can I turn my dwell up on the stock speed to 12 without volumizers on there yet and still be ok?

[pntbalmatt]

maybe we should just have a big AOG meeting and get drunk and ride around on snowmobiles in santa hats with angels and shoot at the local monkeys.

[MooShoo1717]

WTF??!! That was so random.

[MooShoo1717]

What im thinking is that with volumizes you might have to higher the dwell cause you wont be able to have enough air in the quick amount of time you need with a low dwell. The pressure isnt high enough to shove the air throught the bolt in a short cycle time.. You need to have more time meaning a higher dwell. So with a higher dwell and low pressure you would be ultra gentle on paint (pinch balls?) and really quiet. But who knows what that would do to gas effieciency.

[napnap]

The LPR determines how hard the hammer hits the valve while the dwell determines how long it holds it open. The LPR regulates how much air is the hammer uses to open the valve. The only way to decrease this pressure is to remove shims. I've found you can run an Angel's LPR lower than WDP recommends by playing around with the shims. This will increase air effeciency. I don't see how adding a volumizer to the LPR side will affect this. If you add a volumizer to this side you will just allow the volumizer to store enough regulated air to cycle the hammer and bolt four or five more times after the marker has been degassed.

However, a volumizer will greatly affect the other tube, where the valve is. It will create a larger gas resevoir and allow you to lower the operating pressure (higher volume, lower pressure). This couldn't be done on older Angels because, prior to the speed, the LPR was always in front of the valve. Putting a volumizer on this side should require you to change your dwell though.

Noise level- The noise of slow leak (leaking the same volume of air as a shot) and the noise of the gun being shot should be the same. However, the noise of the leak is spread out over a long time, so it won't seem that way due to the limitations of the human ear.

Compressed air expands very quickly. The old study that Airgun Designs did said compressed air coming out of a paintgun will be fully expanded within the first six inches of the barrel. So, as long as you have at least a six inch barrel the operating pressure of the gun doesn't affect the noise of the gun very much. This leaves the volume of the air. More air being vented (as in higher dwell) would mean more noise.
Further, a high volume of air means increased chance of blowback into the hopper (as the air will follow the path of least resistance).

Overall, I wolud recommend thatt you keep your dwell at the factory setting. This is great for 95% of people. If you MUST tinker with it, lowering it will give you better gas efficiency. However, you run the risk of breaking paint. If you lower it too much, you will also starve the valve.

[kissmyglock]

I got one fore you, factory setting I'll bet will be dif on every gun mine was set a 10 dwell, what about yours?

[liquidblue19]

if your using a preset tank of about 800 900 what shoudl u use for a dwell to get the speed shooting less than 300fps

[MooShoo1717]

I think a high dwell would help. But not totally sure. Either that or the dwell wouldnt matter.

[napnap]

On a preset tank if you are having trouble getting your velocity down, i.e. you have the velocity screw turned all the way in and you are still shoooting hot, turn your dwell down.

[MooShoo1717]

maybe i was wrong...

[Badger]

I am not sure really what to think right now. I think I will just go between 10, 12, and 14 and see which I like the best all things considered. I will let the guns performance show me the best setting.

[p8ntballdude]

ok, so im planning to run a nice large volumizer to drop the input pressure to about 190-200 psi. ill have the stock lpr(about 80 or so) and does 12-14 sound good for the dwell?

[Badger]

yeah you will have to run a high dwell to get up to 290fps with large volumizers.....