Adjustable Regulator for Optimum Performance

[VelvetIce_Kyle]

hey guys,
quick question,
im getting my tank converted tommrow to a LP tank, for my A1.
the preset reg on LP tanks is 450 PSI right?
should i get an adjustable reg fitted on so i can have my output pressure at 550-600? ( i heard was the best for the a1)

ive also heard problems with too low output pressures(wont shoot under 9ms dwell) that are at 450, and that a 550-600 psi output fixes that problem?

Thanks

[bajafx4]

I went the adjustable route, but it's a bit more expensive than a preset. If you're having your current reg converted to LP I would just have whoever is doing it set it for at least 500 psi instead of 450.

[VelvetIce_Kyle]

ohh,
so i dont know that much about tanks, ive only had one ever, (my 6845), all i know how to do with them is fill them, and shoot with them:)

so the preset regs are preset by whoever like turns down the PSI?
or so what i meant was, i can get it set to whatever i want, but cant change it afterwards?

so 500 output is best?

[bajafx4]

Basically there are three types of tank regulators:
1) High Pressure (HP) - Usually set to output about 850 psi
2) Low Pressure (LP)- Usually set to output about 450 psi
3) Adjustable Pressure (AP) - Output is adjustable generally in the 200-1000 psi range.

HP and LP PRESET TANKS:
HP and LP tanks come preset from the manufacturer. There is no standard for what the output pressure of a LP or HP tank must be, but generally LP is about 450 and HP is about 850. Different tanks have different output pressures... a MANUFACTURER A LP tank may have a different output pressure than a MANUFACTURER B LP tank and even two tanks from the same manufacturer may even vary slightly in their output pressure. Also, just because a manufacturer says their tank outputs 450 psi doesn't mean it actually does. It's always a good idea to hook up a gauge to check what the output pressure of your tank actually is, especially if you're shooting a marker like the A1 that doesn't like a tank that outputs less than 450 psi. If your tank is supposed to output 450 psi, but it's actually only putting out 400 psi you can see how this could cause a problem. (IMO this is the cause of a lot of problems people are having with their A1's, but again that's just my opinion.) Now I don't know of a single preset tank that can't be adjusted, but it's a lot more involved to change the output of a preset tank than it is an adjustable tank. To change the output of a preset tank you have to disassemble the tank regulator and add or remove shims to increase or decrease the output.

ADJUSTABLE OUTPUT TANKS:
Adjustable tanks are exactly that... adjustable. They almost always come with two gauges instead of just one like the presets; one gauge reads the output pressure that the tank is adjusted to and the other gauge is the same as a preset tank, it reads the amount of pressure in the tank (i.e. 3000 or 4500). Unlike the preset tanks, all it takes to adjust the output pressure of an adjustable tank is to turn a screw or nut on the tank regulator without taking anything apart. Adjustable tank regulators are generally a little bit larger and a little bit heavier than the presets and most of them do not screw in to the ASA, a lot of them bolt up directly to the gun or have a built in dove-tail mount.

Some things to consider when deciding between the two:
1) Price - An adjustable output tank generally costs about $100 more than a preset.
2) Size/Weight - As I said, the adjustables are slightly heavier and bigger. When considering this keep in mind that you can't just compare the tanks to eachother. I had a 68/4500 preset Empire tank on my A1 and now use a 68/4500 adjustable Empire on it. Now if you put the two air systems side by side the adjustable setup is clearly bigger, but when they're installed on the gun the gun is actually smaller from barrel tip to tank butt with the adjustable installed. The reason is because the adjustable setup does not screw into the guns ASA, it mounts directly to the grip frame so you get to remove the stock ASA. So even though the adjustable tank is heavier and larger by itself, once you install it on the gun it's about the same weight overall and it made my A1 almost 2 inches shorter.
3) Convenience - Since most of the adjustble setups mount directly to the guns gripframe, it's more difficult to remove them from the gun. A preset you just unscrew from the ASA, but with most adjustables you'll find that you usually just leave them on the gun all the time. This could be a problem for some... like if you have an idiot kid doing your air fills who likes to bang your gun all around when he's filling the tank since you leave it on the gun.
4) Versatility - So you're going to put this system on your A1 that recommends a low pressure 450-650psi tank output. Great, but what about when you sell the gun and your next gun requires 850psi. If you have an adjustable you can just change the pressure easily. If you have a preset you would normally just buy a new tank.

Whew... my fingers are tired and now it's time for me to eat lunch. Good luck.

Oh yes... WDP recommends no less than 450psi for the A1. Bob from www.fixmyangel.com says that the gun works best with 500-650psi. I have my adjustable tank set to 550 and haven't had a lick of trouble.

Here's a picture of the Empire adjustable setup.
http://img1.putfile.com/thumb/2/3422180460.jpg (http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4689598)
CLICK TO ENLARGE!

Damn! The A1 is so small that it makes my 68ci look more like an 88ci tank and it makes my Reloader B look more like a Halo Backman! I need a 45ci tank and a VLocity Jr.

[bajafx4]

NOTE: I make reference to the tank a lot in that post. Just a reminder that the tank itself doesn't have anything to do with the output pressure. The tank regulator is what makes the difference in the tank output... not the tank itself. The only difference between tanks themselves are that some can be filled to 4500psi and some can only be filled to 3000psi.

[VelvetIce_Kyle]

thanks, you should sticky a thread about that dwell problem, it makes sence, about the output pressure

thanks alot man!

[Trigga Nometry]

I have a half-assed theory on why the Angel One might need a higher pressure to operate than previous Angel platforms. You would think that the Angel One would not need a higher 1st stage pressure (HPA tank) since it should be a lower operating pressure.

Here is my "theory":
Current LP Angels require 450 psi and work just fine.

Some Angel One's work fine but some work even better with the higher 500-650psi that BoB works best with the Angel One.

That is about a 25-28% or so increase in 1st stage pressure for the Angel One to work at it's optimum even though the minireg is basically the same. Yes, I realize that there is much more volume in the exhaust and LPR in the Angel One. Chill out, this is a theory lol.

Anywho, what I find disturbing is that my preshaped Angel One macroline restricts the HPA airflow by about 25%. Take a look at the Angel One's macroline and you'll see that that the inside is much, much smaller than off-the-shelf macroline. To me, that would restrict the air flow into the Angel One's minireg. It would restrict it by about 25%.

I am no air flow expert and I am not a trained air smith but if you chock an air line, you'll starve something...

Yes, I took actual measurements of the inside of the diameter of the standard macroline that I have versus the Angel One's macroline. Maybe everyone else's macroline is OK or my off-the-shelf macroline has an abnormally large inner diameter.

I'll post pics and actual measurements tonight.

[bajafx4]

I've seen sites that sell macro line distinguish between HP and LP macro lines even though the outside diameter is the same... and I think I remember seeing somewhere that they had different ID's.

What doesn't make sense though is that you would think that the HP macro lines would be the ones with thicker walls to handle the higher pressure, but the A1 recommends LP.

You may be on to something. I've never used the original macro line that came with my A1 because it was too short to use with my air setup. I do still have it though... I'm going to compare them when I get home.

Good catch Trigga... you could be on to something! :)

[VelvetIce_Kyle]

that makes sence too,
i have extra macroline sitting around, tommrow when im at the field ill try the a1 out with my stock macroline, and then with the "off the shelf" macroline i have also.

[paco2838]

Yeah...I actually noticed that too.

[Trigga Nometry]

I'll post pics and actual measurements tonight.See attached pic.

[Mavrick]

Trigga,
You are quite correct! The HP line is a heaver wall. It has to be for them to rate its use to 1200 PSI. A LP line would blow at this pressure. The higher quality line is more flexable, so you do get what you pay for.

[WuBuBu]

hallelujah...Perhaps a cheap solution to all of my problems.

Thank you all.

[Trigga Nometry]

Trigga,
You are quite correct! The HP line is a heaver wall. It has to be for them to rate its use to 1200 PSI. A LP line would blow at this pressure. The higher quality line is more flexable, so you do get what you pay for.All the other macrolines included with the Speed 05, G7s and G7 Flys that I had all had the larger macroline opening.

BTW - That macroline that I am using (the red one) is a macroline made for all pressure guns so I am assuming that it is OK. While the thicker macroline line is only more flexible when it comes to pressure, not bend-ability.

[Trigga Nometry]

hallelujah...Perhaps a cheap solution to all of my problems.

Thank you all.Maybe, you have to try it and get back to us.

[boostmonkey]

Trigga, that is a VERY interesting idea. It makes me wonder if there is any possible performance benefit to switching from macroline to braided stainless line. I would think the braided stainless line would have a larger ID.

[Trigga Nometry]

It is worth trying. WDP makes the internal air passages larger for better air flow so following that logic, using a larger ID air line would also be a benefit.

[VelvetIce_Kyle]

i got my tank set to 500 output, and switched my macroline, my a1 shot flawlessly today,
chopped a few shots, but the paint was really brittle

[xmc1146]

trigga your theory is almost close to Bernoulli's principle.

"The principle states that when a fluid flowing through a tube reaches a constriction or narrowing of the tube, the speed of the fluid passing through the constriction is increased and its pressure decreased".

so in physics.. you are correct, theoretically. =) but we are not talking about fluid, aren't we?

[boostmonkey]

Gas = fluid.
Liquid = fluid.
Gas != liquid.

You are right about Bernoulli's principle, but that is not the issue here. We are not concerned about the dynamic pressure at the restriction (macroline), we are concerned about the pressure loss at the microreg due to the flow restriction.

[demiruyar]

I did a little test today with diffrent macrolines.And yes trigga was correct.The marker seemed to be much more consistent over the chrono.

concistancy=accuracy

Trigga you are my hero

[Mavrick]

Think of more like a venturi effect for flow. You have "x" pressure on the supply side. Where it gets reduced in the flow "macro line" there is a pressure drop but it increases the flow rate. On the back side the pressure is higher but not as high as the supply side. It depends on the restriction how much the differential is. So as an example 450 PSI supply. A smaller macro line ID would then have the back side pressure of 380 PSI to the first stage reg of the gun.

On the steel braided line. It depends on the hose they use. It could be smaller than the macro line your seeing in Trigga's picture. The reason it is used is to allow increased pressures to keep the line from rupturing. If thin wall tubing is used it is a good benefit.

I believe this is the same principle used in the A1 to get the benefit of "Kiss Technology" The venturi effect of the exhaust valve opening sizes is how a larger volume of air is reduced in pressure to properly propel the ball with the least amount of air surge when the valve is opened.

[Trigga Nometry]

I checked the stock macroline that came with my G7 Fly (I never used it). It has nearly the same diameter as the stock line that comes with the G7 Fly. So, if you have been using the stock macroline that has come with the previous Angels, chances are you are using the same ID macroline that is coming with the Angel One.

[boostmonkey]

You know what, I am just going to get some good stainless braided line and swivel fittings. Macroline is really just too much hassle. I imagine that I will rarely need to disassemble my gun now that I have done all the mods that I wanted. I never had a problem with SS line when I used it on my woodsball guns, but I actually carry spare macroline in my gear bag incase it develops a leak.

[jmac07]

Trigga & WuBuBu,

Did you test your theory about the macroline and if so, how did it turn out? Yeah, I know this is old thread but would like to know if changing macroline will really result in a change.