Why does the A1 seem to be a step back from the G7 fly?

[Ieo]

The A1....Granted, I haven't seen, held, or shot one yet because they haven't found their way to my area....but all I hear is efficiency issues and minor glitches. What's the deal?!? They were supposed to improve on the g7 platform...but most people are saying they would take a g7 fly over an a1 any day....and how is it that the A1 gets worse efficiency when all the internals were supposed to have been improved? Is what I'm hearing all crap and people just don't know what they are talking about? And worst of all, what the hell is with the huge bore barrel kit? Yeah...it's easier to shoot through breaks...swollen balls in the summer...who cares? That’s why kits come with ONE, or, at the most, TWO bores in the .690's....I'm upset with this all....I love Angels and I have been let down. If a MT out there reads this and wishes to clear up some stuff along the lines of ways to get more shots from a tank or plans for an expanded barrel kit.....feel free, we're all waiting. What could it hurt?

[Devs]

I get the feeling that they were a little too excited about the release of the A1 and rushed it a tad. But do you remember the release of the 05 speed? That had its own share of problems. Such as software shut down and ridiculous bounce from the new trigger style.

Just about ever new generation of gun from any brand has kinks to work through. Granted the A1 has had a few more than normal, its still going through "growing pains"

As for the barrel kit, I don't see what the problem is. I typically only shoot a .693 and I've run into paint larger than that. So I say kudos to WDP.
In this day of the sport, efficiency doesn't matter as much because after a game you can just fill up again. Never have I run out of air during a game right after I filled up.

[NitroBall]

I own a 2 Arsenal G7 Fly's, 1 being a 45 frame, the other a 90 frame.
I have borrowed an A1 for a few tourneys, yes it is a very nice marker , and very light , especially with a 0.8L tank on it.
But overall , i got to admit i like my G7 Fly's better , this is only down to my own personal preference of how a marker feels in my hands . Just got so use to the Fly's.
I cannot comment on other players experience with there minor glitches if any ,the fact i dont own the A1. I would not slate the A1 , and as for efficiency, there was more than enough air left in the tank after each game.

[Ieo]

well.....efficiency is a huge deal for me....I usually end up playing back or mid and sometimes can shoot up to 7 pods or so...plus the initial hopper. sometimes I really don't have to shoot that much...I just want to. :evilgrin:

[schroederman]

i bought an a1 4 weeks ago. when i received it, it had major issues. after my tech put a new solenoid in, and ego6 detents, it has worked flawless. i owned an 05 speed as my first angel. nice marker, was stupid fast. then i moved on to a "gat", an 06 speed base. it was superior in many ways, and i liked it more. better efficency, less ball breaks, etc. now i'm on to my a1. although i did have 2 weeks of sorting out issues, it's now unbelieveable. my teammate also got an a1, and had no issues at all.

we are shooting anything from evil to victory paint, tons of brittle shells with NO issues. with .691 back and evil, i am getting a halo and 5 pods off without any drop off. i have yet to do more than that in a game, but i usually have just over 800 psi left on a 68 3k fill.

it took me 2 weeks, but i'm super impressed now.

[Trigga Nometry]

it took me 2 weeks, but i'm super impressed now.And just like your friend, I would imagine that all the A1's getting to the customers now rip right out of the box.

Damn, I cannot wait until mine gets in.

[boostmonkey]

I feel the A1 has some pros and cons compared to previous Angels.

It is the 2nd major rearrangement of the internal components of an Angel and just like the change between the IR3 and the 03 Speed, WDP was able to make some big advances:

The relocation of the LPR to the back eliminates the long passageway LP air had to travel to the solenoid and just makes sense.
Keeping the 3-tube layout and using the front of the two lower tubes as an internal volumizer is a great design. It is compact yet has good valve chamber volume.
Including a USB interface and making firmware updates user-uploadable is a really nice feature. You can have the latest firmware without the downtime while your gun is being shipped to a mastertech.
A lighter hammer, larger LPR volume chamber, & prettier screen are minor, but nice, tweaks.


I think WDP's choice to promote the size and weight reduction over the design enhancements is a mistake. That couldn't seem like a more trivial reason to buy a $1200 premium paintball gun. Does anyone know how much an Odyssey RPM weighs? I have held an A1 and an RPM and I believe the RPM is lighter. That does not mean it is better.

Unfortunately I think a couple of the changes were steps backwards:

The switch to rubber ball detents from the plastic cup & spring detents was a huge mistake in my opinion. The old detents work flawlessly and last forever and the new ones do not do either.
Apparently most of WDP's sales are 45 frames, so the lack of a 90* frame is not without cause. But for those of us who greatly prefer 90* frames, the lack of one will keep some from buying an A1.


The software bugs have already been fixed. It appears as though the faulty eye cover problem has also been resolved.

WDP's inclusion of a stock barrel kit like some other markers (WGP Trilogys) is a very nice value-add. I agree that the size choices are not ideal, but at least you have some choices. If Angelforce would release a barrel kit with several more backs and maybe another front or two I imagine a LOT of A1 owners would buy it.

That's my $0.03.

[xxmjumpman23xx]

And just like your friend, I would imagine that all the A1's getting to the customers now rip right out of the box.

Damn, I cannot wait until mine gets in.

so trig whens yours coming? I have noticed you always get the new angels right when they come out lol You waiting for the rage/joy or diff colors?

[WallyR]

I have both a G7 Fly and an A1 and the A1 is definately better than the G7 Fly.
I made sure the dealer got a new one directly from WDP and it just ran smoothly out of the box.

I think the release was a bit rushed and many of the A1s in the first batch where not properly QC'ed and many of the problems and bugs where not found and corrected, due to too short test runs.

[Devs]

I've started a Rage/Joy A1 fund. I need to see pics before I decide which one I want, but I plan on getting one regardless. And I expect that the final kinks will be worked out at that point. Until then I am very content with my 05 speed.

[p8ntballerff]

I had a few issues originally with my A1 but, all have been fixed/sorted out. Now my A1 is nothing but an unbelievably fast paint gun. Efficiency isn't a worry I usually get around 7-8 pods plus a hopper or two on a 68/45 fill.

[xxmjumpman23xx]

I've started a Rage/Joy A1 fund. I need to see pics before I decide which one I want, but I plan on getting one regardless. And I expect that the final kinks will be worked out at that point. Until then I am very content with my 05 speed.

you only have one day to wait for the Joy, SD begins tomorrow!!!! The rage is said to follow soon after.

[Trigga Nometry]

so trig whens yours coming? I have noticed you always get the new angels right when they come out lol You waiting for the rage/joy or diff colors?A little off topic but I was holding out for a polished A1 but that may not happen. The red dust A1 is good enough for me. Cannot wait!!!

I am not too much a fan of the team guns. Not that they aren't nice or anything. I just don't follow the teams enough to really want a team gun. I really liked the Arsenal and JD G7's though. Those were freaking hot! I am sure the Rage and JD A1's will follow in hottness lol.

[Ieo]

There better be pics of the joy up asap.....I don't care if someone has to fly there tonight and jump the fence with a disposable camera....

[Devs]

A little off topic but I was holding out for a polished A1 but that may not happen. The red dust A1 is good enough for me. Cannot wait!!!

I am not too much a fan of the team guns. Not that they aren't nice or anything. I just don't follow the teams enough to really want a team gun. I really liked the Arsenal and JD G7's though. Those were freaking hot! I am sure the Rage and JD A1's will follow in hottness lol.

I don't follow the teams either Frank, but the PL guns tend to be the sexiest Angels released.... Look at the Arsenals, best looking gun I think I've ever seen. :love:

[Trigga Nometry]

There better be pics of the joy up asap.....I don't care if someone has to fly there tonight and jump the fence with a disposable camera....lol

I don't follow the teams either Frank, but the PL guns tend to be the sexiest Angels released.... Look at the Arsenals, best looking gun I think I've ever seen. :love:I complete agree. The Arsenal is the hottest looking gun. I think so too. For me, an extremely close second would be Miami Devious' Arsenal that is the black/gold :drools: .

Anyway, back to topic. The only real thing that I was surprised about regarding the A1 is that the operating pressures are higher than I would have expected. Yes, I know that not necessarily a lower pressure means a better gun. Don't know why, but I just assumed that the smaller/lighter parts and the huge ass volume near the valve would allow for lower pressures that might help people shoot more reliably in colder weather or just with brittle paint in general.

But, at the Boston NPPL right before a Joy Division game I was standing there waiting to get onto the field to take some pictures of them playing and I asked Joy Division's Mellis what he thought about the A1 and how it was performing in the crappy weather (it was raining and when it wasn't, it was extremely humid).

Now, Mellis didn't know me from a hole in the wall. Heck I was just there to take pictures, not interview him. His response completely surprised me because in his broken English he explained that it was performing better than expected and proceeded to tell me the exact same story that Maximus said in that WDP Angel One Release (this one here - link) (http://www.wdp.tv/mailouts05/020806-maxcrew/maxcrew.html). Mellis even took paint out of his loader and dropped it from about eyeball height and he said watch this, the paint was just breaking on the ground! It was super brittle. He was so happy that he could shoot it. It truly sounded like he never expected to be able to.

That made me change my mind about the operating pressures and all that stuff. So much in fact that I almost bought a JD jersey at the Angel booth and was going to go to Ken Crane and pose as a JD player and ask where my A1 was because I needed it. If my crappy Swedish accent didn't make me sound like the Swedish Chief from The Muppet Show, maybe I would have tried and got away with it lol.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, I bet you might be able to run the A1 at really low pressures. But I bet you would have to sacrifice efficiency. Huh, something to try and mess around with when I get mine in.

[Mavrick]

I can only speculate but I think the team guns coming are going to be unbelievably hot. With Arsenal gone Rage A1 will be nothing short of stellar. I'm sure the milling will be super attractive and the ano job in a red fade with some etch of chains or something will make it a real eye catcher. Joy has always been a winner in the WDP edition so without question that one will be sweet too!

I got a G7 Arsenal now and I would most likely go for a A1 Rage myself. KEN wakeup! lol let me know when you read this!

[Shades]

I must confess that when I first set eyes on the A1 and used it long before it was released I still preferred the feel of the G7 Fly’s I was using at the time, since then playing events from time to time with a sponsored A1 this marker really grows on you.

The real advantage is that this marker can shoot event the most fragile of paints with no problems at all, this I witnessed first had last Saturday at the Campaign Cup Millennium event hosted at Crystal Palace London when Jot Stockholm picked paint that was sitting directly under the chillier outlet in the back of the paint container. This alone just shows the improvements made with the new angel A1.

Will be one in my kit bag very soon.

[boostmonkey]

Trigga, I think the relatively high operating pressure on the A1s is inversely correlated to the low dwell. I bet if you cranked the dwell up to 15ms then you would have to drop the operating pressure to below 200.

[OverweightAngel275]

Trigga, when I was in the Pro pit the whole weekend I did the same thing and I was amazed, because the paint was garbage and they were shooting fine all day. I wish I knew all of their names, but I even was holding and checking it out, all I thought was pure amazing.

[Trigga Nometry]

Trigga, I think the relatively high operating pressure on the A1s is inversely correlated to the low dwell. I bet if you cranked the dwell up to 15ms then you would have to drop the operating pressure to below 200.Yeah, I realize that but the dwell is not the only thing that has changed on the A1. Remember that the air passages are huge compared to even the G7 platform. But now that I think of it, it probably all evens out because since the gun is smaller, the volume of operating pressure air is maybe slightly increased over the G7 platform. Not sure though will have to wait until I get mine in.

[F=ma]

I feel the A1 has some pros and cons compared to previous Angels.

It is the 2nd major rearrangement of the internal components of an Angel and just like the change between the IR3 and the 03 Speed, WDP was able to make some big advances:
.
.
.
Unfortunately I think a couple of the changes were steps backwards:
Apparently most of WDP's sales are 45 frames, so the lack of a 90* frame is not without cause. But for those of us who greatly prefer 90* frames, the lack of one will keep some from buying an A1.


I would quote the whole thing for truth but I wanted to expand/agree with 2 points that you made.

1) The 2004 generation (04 speed/A4/A4 Fly) of Angels used so much of its left tube for the battery when other markers were using 9v's in the grip. You'd think that a triple tube marker would have plenty of internal volume, yet 2004 Angels did not. Silly battery. That battery makes the 2004 angels pretty similar to other stack tube poppet valve guns out there in terms of design, bushies, imps, timmys, etc as far as internal volume goes. The battery was pretty much negating the advantage of a triple tube.

Vikings were proper triple tube designs, were they not? They used 9v's and that allowed the use of all the internal space of the triple tube for volumization.

I'm glad that the G7 runs on 9v and the A1 as well. The little bit about the LPR I didn't know before and that's even more reason to like it.

2) The 90 frame. Argh, that was one of the main reasons for never switching to a DM and instead sticking with WDP. I'm not sure why WDP isn't making a 90 frame for the A1, but if I were to guess I'd surmise that they wanted to keep the tagline "smallest profile of any high end gun" when a 90 frame would add to that height. A 45 frame keeps the height down.

[younggunna69]

there isn't any hoses in the A1 is there?

[Luigi Speed 05]

I would quote the whole thing for truth but I wanted to expand/agree with 2 points that you made.

1) The 2004 generation (04 speed/A4/A4 Fly) of Angels used so much of its left tube for the battery when other markers were using 9v's in the grip. You'd think that a triple tube marker would have plenty of internal volume, yet 2004 Angels did not. Silly battery. That battery makes the 2004 angels pretty similar to other stack tube poppet valve guns out there in terms of design, bushies, imps, timmys, etc as far as internal volume goes. The battery was pretty much negating the advantage of a triple tube.

Vikings were proper triple tube designs, were they not? They used 9v's and that allowed the use of all the internal space of the triple tube for volumization.

I'm glad that the G7 runs on 9v and the A1 as well. The little bit about the LPR I didn't know before and that's even more reason to like it.

2) The 90 frame. Argh, that was one of the main reasons for never switching to a DM and instead sticking with WDP. I'm not sure why WDP isn't making a 90 frame for the A1, but if I were to guess I'd surmise that they wanted to keep the tagline "smallest profile of any high end gun" when a 90 frame would add to that height. A 45 frame keeps the height down.

And you have any doubts they will release the 45 frame sometime in the near future?? If they don't, that'd be totally out of character for WDP....

[tgallo]

And you have any doubts they will release the 45 frame sometime in the near future?? If they don't, that'd be totally out of character for WDP....

It only comes in a 45 frame. It's the 90 frame that the guy wants. However it has been stated on this board that a 90 will not be made as the 90 was responsible for only a small percentage of total sales on prveious Angel models.

[Luigi Speed 05]

It only comes in a 45 frame. It's the 90 frame that the guy wants. However it has been stated on this board that a 90 will not be made as the 90 was responsible for only a small percentage of total sales on prveious Angel models.

I'm feeling a bit dislexic today, of course I meant the 90 frame... oh well, so if the reason is financial and not a design decision, then it'd be on character...

[F=ma]

It only comes in a 45 frame. It's the 90 frame that the guy wants. However it has been stated on this board that a 90 will not be made as the 90 was responsible for only a small percentage of total sales on prveious Angel models.

If WDP made an aftermarket 90 frame and marketed it like Dye has pushed the UL frame, then they would stand to make a killing off it.

People would want it just because it was the latest and greatest, and not because they actually thought it was better in any way than the 45.

The UL frame is 1 oz lighter than the standard DM frame. Worth $235? Sure it comes with the DM6 board, but still... Worth $235? Dye has convinced a bunch of folks of just that, and they've made a killing in doing so.

So WDP, make an aftermarket 90 frame, shape it like an hourglass, shave an ounce off the weight, and call it the Fly Frame, or whatever you like.

I'd buy an A1 the day I heard they were coming out with a 90 frame for it.

[Luigi Speed 05]

If WDP made an aftermarket 90 frame and marketed it like Dye has pushed the UL frame, then they would stand to make a killing off it.

People would want it just because it was the latest and greatest, and not because they actually thought it was better in any way than the 45.

The UL frame is 1 oz lighter than the standard DM frame. Worth $235? Sure it comes with the DM6 board, but still... Worth $235? Dye has convinced a bunch of folks of just that, and they've made a killing in doing so.

So WDP, make an aftermarket 90 frame, shape it like an hourglass, shave an ounce off the weight, and call it the Fly Frame, or whatever you like.

I'd buy an A1 the day I heard they were coming out with a 90 frame for it.


I personally don't like the UL frame very much, maybe I'm just not too used to it but it feels kinda small in my hands...but I'm sure that weight was only one of the factors that made it such a hit between Dye owners, it really feels a lot different in your hands than the regular frame... on the other hand I love the 90 frame on my Speed, and I think the Fly Frame is a freking great idea...

[cwoertel]

Trigga, I think the relatively high operating pressure on the A1s is inversely correlated to the low dwell. I bet if you cranked the dwell up to 15ms then you would have to drop the operating pressure to below 200.

if you look at all low pressure guns they have a high dwell, to compensate(sp) for the low pressure. If you want the a1 to run below 200psi, then crank the dwell up to anything above 11, but you will not have much of a change in anything other than you can not shoot as brittle of paint. The smaller amount of air at higher pressure is the most effective way of propelling a paintball, geater expansion quicker, more power.

[boostmonkey]

People would want it just because it was the latest and greatest, and not because they actually thought it was better in any way than the 45.


QFT.

Q for absolute freaking T

[boostmonkey]

if you look at all low pressure guns they have a high dwell, to compensate(sp) for the low pressure. If you want the a1 to run below 200psi, then crank the dwell up to anything above 11, but you will not have much of a change in anything other than you can not shoot as brittle of paint. The smaller amount of air at higher pressure is the most effective way of propelling a paintball, geater expansion quicker, more power.

Of course WDP says in all their manuals that increasing the dwell is easier on brittle paint. ;)

I agree with you otherwise though. :)

[cwoertel]

[QUOTE=boostmonkey;535622]Of course WDP says in all their manuals that increasing the dwell is easier on brittle paint. ;)

Actually if you can reduce the dwell while increasing pressure you will hit a sweet spot where you will be the most brittle on paint. Low pressure does not equal low impact on paint. Law of conservation and expansion of gases, find a balance

[boostmonkey]

[QUOTE=boostmonkey;535622]Of course WDP says in all their manuals that increasing the dwell is easier on brittle paint. ;)

Actually if you can reduce the dwell while increasing pressure you will hit a sweet spot where you will be the most brittle on paint. Low pressure does not equal low impact on paint. Law of conservation and expansion of gases, find a balance

How is that?

I think you meant "gentle on paint" , right?

I believe the basic premise WDP is basing their instruction on is that a longer, lower pressure push of air on the ball is gentler than a shorter, higher pressure burst of air. Remember, the ball starts moving almost instantaneously as soon as the air pressure behind it starts to increase from the valve opening. As the ball moves forward the volume behind the ball in the breech increases. If you deliver the air to the ball slower (longer dwell, lower operating pressure) the volume of the breech behind the ball is increasing (ball moving forward) more while the air is still being delivered thus curtailing the peak pressure developed.

[cwoertel]

you have to find a balance between dwell and pressure, not all low pressure guns are gentle on brittle paintballs, just like not all high pressure guns are hard on brittle paint. There are more factors than just the air pressure acting on the ball as it starts to leave the barrel, bolt force, time in contact with bolt, humidity, and others. The big one to remember in this case is time in contact with the bolt. Tom Kaye did a study a couple of years ago and discovered that 75psi is all that is required to project a paintball at 285fps. The main differance is how that 75psi is delivered. lower pressure subjects the ball to a much higher amount of air that can be very harmful to brittle paint. It is a combination of dwell and presure, not just one. The ball is moving faster than the air can push it with in the first several miliseconds, so more air after that is a waste of air. find the right balance between dwell and pressure. that is what I think wdp has done with the a1

[Devs]

I miss Tom Kaye and all his crazy experiments. Nice guy too.
Sorry, off topic.

[BoB]

Typically the higher dwell just slows the marker cycle time down and has very little effect on how the air pushes the ball.