Aluminium Ram Upgrade

[chris71383]

Got bored thougt I'd upgrade my LCD some more.




http://i7.tinypic.com/25upt87.jpg


http://i4.tinypic.com/25upudk.jpg



Stock is shaft 16.5 grams and the Aluminium shaft is 5.5 grams.
Paired with one of the Nylon hammers I made(started making them in december of last year, long before crownsk8er started selling them) that weighs in at 6 grams, there is no kick at all.

[warpedx]

Nice work man, that looks really clean. What kind of spring are you running behind the valve?

[dUCt tAPe BAndIT]

F/s?

[chris71383]

warpedx - Custom UL Valve spring(same one I was selling with the hammers I made). I am working on a super light but robust spring, I also wana try it with no valve spring and see what kind of results.


dUCt tAPe BAndIT - Yes they will be for sale, if your interested PM me. I am gonna get a little stock built up and get them clear annoed. (maby a week)


The rams are not just a copy of the stock ram, there are some operational improvements. The improvments allow the ram to operate much smoother and faster and allow it to be moved with as little as 8-10 psi. There is also in improvment that allows the nylon hammer to positivly look with the bolt a little better. I'm not going into specifics since the last time I did that my idea was totaly ripped off and copied.

[boostmonkey]

Chris, that is awesome! :slap: Have you thought about making them for A4s? ;) Is the ram shaft even replaceable on A4s? :neutral:

[chris71383]

I could make them for the A4s I would just need a ram shaft to get some measurements off of. I'm not entirely sure if they are replacable or not.

[Vegard]

Still have nylon hammers? I`d be interested in a bundle with a ram :)

[boostmonkey]

Still have nylon hammers? I`d be interested in a bundle with a ram :)

I know, that's what I am thinking. Nylon/delrin hammer with an aluminum ram: That would be an awesomely low cycling mass. :disappear

[crownsk8er]

if you can make this for the 4 fly engine id buy one, or how do you get the ramshaft out of the stock assembly? cause i would prolly turn oue out

[spyderplayer2002]

will this fit my led?

[chris71383]

That is kinda the plan, offer the Nylon hammer, Aluminium Ram shaft and UL valve spring as a set. Also offering the Hammer, Spring, and Ram shaft seperatly.

Just for those of you who commented on the cycling mass:

Stock ram shaft and SS hammer: 65.5g
Aluminium ram shaft and Nylon hammer: 11.5g



I will have to get a few nylon hammers turned out to sell.


Yes it will fit in an LED Ram since the Ram is the same in the LCD and LED maby in the IR3 also. it would just be a matter of getting everything tuned and set to take full advantage of the upgrade.

[spyderplayer2002]

what are prices going to be?

[Vegard]

sign me up for a full kit\bundle then! :D

[spyderplayer2002]

sign me up also for the bundle

[dodgeballers_ia]

I'd like a kit also.

[dUCt tAPe BAndIT]

definately gonna buy ram and UL spring (if reasonably priced)
if i bought it, could i ship my existing ram & uninstalled nylon hammer (whole, assembled) to you, and you ship back to me assembled? WILL PAY EXTRA

gonna go into a little beast of a project gun that you may have seen on pbn http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1392881

[boostmonkey]

chris71383, I don't want to be the jerk who keeps coming up with suggestions or keeps telling you how you "should have done" your awesome mod. But there is something I would love to have and you might be the only person crazy enough to make it. :watchout:

A hammerless ram shaft. Like the rammer on an Ego. It would be an extended length ram shaft where the end of the ram hits the valve directly. It would need to have some kind of provision turned into it for the bolt pin to fit into. Make the whole thing out of your lightweight aluminum. How sweet would that be? :drools:

I never found out if the ram shaft is even non-destructively removable on an A4 Fly (what I have). If not, you could make the new ram shafts to fit the rebuildable Evolve ram if they are still available. :notsure:

[Redsst]

A hammerless ram shaft. Like the rammer on an Ego. It would be an extended length ram shaft where the end of the ram hits the valve directly. It would need to have some kind of provision turned into it for the bolt pin to fit into. Make the whole thing out of your lightweight aluminum. How sweet would that be? :drools::

Now THAT is a good idea.

[chris71383]

spyderplayer2002 - Haven't come up with a definate price. Gotta see what it costs me for the anno, material, packaging, and time.


Vegard - I'll let you know when I have a definate price and some stock ready to go out


spyderplayer2002 - ditto


dodgeballers_ia - ditto


dUCt tAPe BAndIT - Yeah I have no problem with that, in fact I would almost prefer that just so I can make sure everything is setup perfect for ya. Nice "project", I should post up some info on my 2 projects.


boostmonkey - I have thought about it, and because of the design of the angel(ie. Rotobreech) it would be very difficult to get the pin to engage the "hammer" or ram shaft. If the angel had a pin that moved vertically in relation to the bolt and "hammer" it would alot easier to make a shat with a hole that the pin could lock into. Also there is the issue of making it compatable with the current ram housing. If you come up with an idea let me know, I have no problem pototyping the part on the lathe.


Redsst - Covered

[boostmonkey]

I think you could make the hammerless ram shaft work if you machined the end of the ram to resemble the shape of the end of the stock hammer. You would have two large diameter discs to push/pull the bolt pin just like the slot in the stock hammer. After that you could turn the diamter down to the size it needs to be go into the ram body. This means you would have to start with larger diameter bar stock, which would drive up the price some.

I created a 3D model to explain what I mean. The dimensions are not correct, I just wanted to make an example.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/paintball/Angelrammer.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/paintball/angelrammer3D.jpg
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/paintball/angelrammer3D2.jpg

You can see the small black o-ring on the ram shaft in my model. I don't know about other Angels, but the 4 series have this small o-ring in a groove on the ram shaft. When the ram is fully retracted it makes contact with the the end of the ram housing and seals the chamber. The main ram seal is so loose (for low friction) that it leaks slightly. The o-ring keeps it from losing air when the gun isn't firing.

What do you think?

[chris71383]

Thats is pretty much pic I had in my head. The main problem is if you turn the snap ring end down so that it slides into the ram housing from the front there will be no way to move it since there would be no oring contacting the inside of the housing.

[warpedx]

The oring on the ram towards the hammer was added to the design of the original speed. It replaces the snap ring entirely, having both on there might be an issue.
I like the idea of the all in one design, but the catch would be: How do you get the front cap of the ram on?

[boostmonkey]

The oring on the ram towards the hammer was added to the design of the original speed. It replaces the snap ring entirely, having both on there might be an issue.
I like the idea of the all in one design, but the catch would be: How do you get the front cap of the ram on?


Ah, good info, thanks. I have never seen a later ram shaft outside of the ram housing, so i copied the snap ring end from Chris's pictures. Apparently that shape isn't needed.

I haven't really looked at any WDP rams that carefully, older or newer, to see how they are assembled. But I see your point Chris. Even if we can't have hammerless rams, there are still people who would love to have an aluminum ram shaft for A4s/Flys/05Speeds. :smile:

[Mavrick]

Yes they will be for sale, if your interested PM me. I am gonna get a little stock built up and get them clear annoed. (maby a week).

If that is the plan I would speak to your anodizer to see what they will tolerance on the job. You could be looking at 5 to 6 tenths of coating. On an OD or ID surface that is one thousand of buildup. Take that into account when you make your parts. Been caught there before and it is not fun to fix!

On the A4 ram, no it is not made to be taken apart. The end cap is swaged on.

[boostmonkey]

On the A4 ram, no it is not made to be taken apart. The end cap is swaged on.
That is what I was afraid of. Alright Chris, we need an aluminum ram shaft to that fits the Evolve rebuildable ram (http://www.fixmyangel.com/modules.php?name=catalog&file=product_info&products_id=684&osCsid=) for A4s/Flts/05Speeds. :smile:

I don't have an Evolve rebuildable ram. But if there was an aluminum shaft available that might change some people's minds.

[Mavrick]

I don't have an Evolve rebuildable ram. But if there was an aluminum shaft available that might change some people's minds.


Aluminum might not be the best of materials, here is why. The expansion coefficient is quite high. Under heavy cycling the cold air will have an effect on your tolerance's. It will not take shock well and most likely bend. Being a fairly soft material it will wear from high friction forces, coated or not. Not unless you hard coat it. I used a Evolve rebuildable and did my own shaft out of titanium around .235 diameter. The hammer is again titanium but much smaller and lighter than the stock setup. I used Torlon for the front cap on the Evolve and bore sized it for a slip fit. Internally of this cap is an O ring for my seal. It is an interference fit on the O ring.

Works sweet just a pain to make! lol

[chris71383]

Played this weekend in the rain, about 65deg. outside. Ran over a case thru my LCD with the Ram shaft,nylon hammer, and UL spring. Not one chop absolutely no kick or bounce(I have the Debounce on my pred board at zero and I let the refs at the field try and get it to bounce, they tried everything with no luck and even commented on how smooth and fast it was, for an old angel:( ). Its kinda funny when I handed it to a kid that was shooting an Ion and let him shoot a hopper thru it, when he was done he was like what kinda gun is that:), and went and told all his friends about it. Pulled it out, and no signs of wear at all and this is a raw unannoed prototype. Total so far the ram has around 6k cycles. Good news, there has been a ton of interested so I am talking with a few local companies about doing a run of them on the cnc lathe, whcih may mean a slight delay but overall faster production. More updates later.

[dodgeballers_ia]

Hell I didn't notice you're from Omaha. I'am from Ft. Dodge in Iowa. When you get ready to produce I'll drive there to pick one up. Who knows I'll bring the team and we can make a day out of it.

[spyderplayer2002]

when do you think you will be able to sell the kit? and how much extra will it cost me to send my whole ram to you to do the mod?

[chris71383]

dodgeballers_ia - Yeah, that would cool, I usually play at MPG in Council bluffs(used to be Diesel's home field). I'll let you know when I start selling/shipping them.


spyderplayer2002 - I'm figuring within a week, I had to order some more springs and some aluminium. I have been given acces to an old CNC lathe so hope fully I can get it figured out(uses old conversational programing and has very little memory) and start running them on there so I can get them out sooner.

[spyderplayer2002]

any updates?

[chris71383]

I am sending out some samples to businesses.


spyderplayer2002 - If you would like to send me your ram that would be great, makes the setup much easier for you and I make sure you get the full potential. Send me a PM for the address and more details..

[spyderplayer2002]

any new updates if you need aluminum i can get it cheap

[chris71383]

spyderplayer2002 - PM me some details.

[Vegard]

If you want to I can help you get funds and test markers..

[spyderplayer2002]

any new updates?

[chris71383]

Ok, finally got some time to get some sets made.



Parts that come in the kit:

http://i14.tinypic.com/2v0oilx.jpg



Compairison between the Stock Ram/Hammer and the upgrade Ram/hammer:

http://i13.tinypic.com/3y64svs.jpg



3 sets ready to go out the door:
(Picture illustrates how they well be shipped not how they are installed into the ram housing.)

http://i13.tinypic.com/34g68oy.jpg

[dodgeballers_ia]

What's the price? I'll take the first one. Pm with the info and assembly. Thanks, Chris

[boostmonkey]

Oh my gosh now I need an LCD as a backup gun.

[cngham]

Could one of you explain how to remove the ram shaft from the assembly?

[dodgeballers_ia]

Payment Has Been Sent!!!

[dodgeballers_ia]

Do I still use the cup gasket inside the housing?

[chris71383]

Yes, you also reuse the oring on the stock ram shaft. The only parts that are not reused are the stock ram shaft, hammer, and valve spring.

[dodgeballers_ia]

So I replace the exhaust valve spring? Cause I've had my ram compleatly torn down 3 week ago and there was no spring inside there.

[chris71383]

yep, I just put the spring on the ram shaft for shipping so it doesn't get damaged.

[chris71383]

cngham - the Kits do come with a manual I have typed up explaning how to disassemble and reassemnle the ram housing in order to install the kit.

[dodgeballers_ia]

Gotcha.

[gremlin75]

cngham - the Kits do come with a manual I have typed up explaning how to disassemble and reassemnle the ram housing in order to install the kit.


Any chance you can post that here also? Im trying to get my ram apart for cleaning and Im having a hell of a time.

EDIT: Also are the ram shafts anodized? If so how much for a kit and how do you take payment ;)

later
gremlin

[chris71383]

Pm me your email and I'll send you the Manual, its a text file written in word pad.

[Gimmick]

What style ram does the 2k3 LCD have? http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1817291 That's the gun I'm getting, and I'm just wondering if it's the LCD ram assembly, or the IR3 one.

[Vegard]

What style ram does the 2k3 LCD have? http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?t=1817291 That's the gun I'm getting, and I'm just wondering if it's the LCD ram assembly, or the IR3 one.

ir3

[cngham]

Will these kits work on the IR3 ram as well?

[dodgeballers_ia]

I just got the ram reassembeled and I got to tell you this thing is extremely light. I can't wait to get it home and put back in.

[cHc]

are you still thinking of making a run of something like this for the a4? if so i will pay you well for it!

[dUCt tAPe BAndIT]

still have any?? i have $, how much?

[gremlin75]

Got mine today. Looks good. I cant wait to test it out

later
gremlin

[Vegard]

Mine came in today too, just got to find my toolkit so I can test it.. Looks great though :D

[chris71383]

gremlin75 and Vegard - Glad to hear that and thanks, I forgot to mention that it is advisable to lower your LPR to around 60psi.

[chris71383]

cHc - if I remember right the A4 rams cannot be dissassembled so there would be no way to replace the shaft, sorry.


dUCt tAPe BAndIT - Unfortunatly I do not have any in stock at the moment, I plan on getting another batch made this week. Those will be ready to go next week.

[dUCt tAPe BAndIT]

how much exactly? i will paypal it to you asap.

[spyderplayer2002]

any updates?

[chris71383]

no updates curently, I have been swamped lately.

[spyderplayer2002]

new batch done?

[blackrock]

I want a Set, so drop me a line at peaches77@joink.com when ya get them ready with a price tag ;-)

[dUCt tAPe BAndIT]

ya me too... its been a while since ive seen any updates. newkidyoucopy@hotmail.com send me your address so i can make payment when theyre ready

[budda]

are these still for sale.

[chris71383]

I am still going to make another run, I haven't set a date so that there are no deadlines to meet in case something comes up. I have been super busy but they will get done I appoligize for the super long delay.

The original ram and hammer set are still holding up great with no issues at all.

[Boozer11378]

i am really interested in this mod. can you PM me a price.

[kcfan]

i'll take one also

[rammstein_5]

Stuff looks awesome, depending on price put me down for two. One for my lcd and one for my led.

[Vapaintballer400]

I am still interested. Could you please PM me a price? Thanks

[ebolacola]

i'll take one!

[vietangel]

i'd like also, please pm with price

[JawCrusher]

i'd like also, please pm with price

Ditto... ram, hammer, and spring.

[Zelotic]

Can you PM me a price?

[Fargbollen]

Hi chris71383!
I would like to buy a set for my old LCD.
Please get back to me with pricing and where to send the money.

I don't know if you take request at this time, but how about making a similar kit for the rebuildable Evolve A4 RAM? The manufacturing should be almost identical and I could even provide you with a drawing with the correct measures.

[dUCt tAPe BAndIT]

Hurry Up For The Love Of God! While I Still Have Money!

[JawCrusher]

Hurry Up For The Love Of God! While I Still Have Money!

Not to flame but seriously... have patience. You have to understand that Chris is not doing this as a primary business and to have someone make such a great upgrade for a good price AND because no one else offers what he is offering... We all have to be patient... that's all there is to it. The last thing I want to see happen is Chris get stressed/pissed at the demands he's getting and stopping production of this. I'm sure all your guns shoot just fine w/out the upgrade right now so enjoy it while it lasts.

Again... not trying to flame... I just don't want Chris to stop making these as a result of too many pushy requests.

Have a great weekend!

[kcfan]

Hurry Up For The Love Of God! While I Still Have Money!

LOL

[Fargbollen]

Can someone just tell me what the kit costs?

[spyderplayer2002]

whoever buys a kit will love it i got him to send me a nylon hammer 4 times better still kills a bit. suggest this kit 100% chris is a great guy too.

[budda]

Still waiting.

[justinburchill]

once you've got them made, i'm definitely in for one. keep us updated. :cool:

[Rocket Man]

Chris: I'll take two kits, one for my team mate. Pm/d you, will give you a deposit to get it going.

[gremlin75]

I know there is at least one kit up for sale in the Angel parts bst forum :) (I never got around to setting my lcd up for it and since I dont use my lcd any more I found no reason to keep the kit :( )

later
gremlin

[JawCrusher]

I know there is at least one kit up for sale in the Angel parts bst forum :) (I never got around to setting my lcd up for it and since I dont use my lcd any more I found no reason to keep the kit :( )

later
gremlin

DIBS!!! Posted in your thread.

[CrudeIdol]

hey, shoot me a PM when you have a chance with a price and payment info?

kudos on the work!

thanks much!

~Crude

[JawCrusher]

I bought one of Chris' kit from Gremlin. I'm having some velocity problems after putting it all together. If anyone who has bought one of these kits could contact me (including Chris) to let me know what I'm doing wrong, I'd appreciate it.

Here's the problem...

Dropped the LPR psi down to 70psi or so be removing two shims. The velocity was so low that balls would go about 10 feed and drop. When increasing my velocity it improves but then goes down again. So basically if I try to increase the psi on my vert. reg too too high it will start to drop the velocity.

Anyone know what I'm doing wrong? I installed the UL spring that came with the kit as well.

[Mavrick]

The valve is not open long enough. Part of the weight of the hammer is to hit the valve stem with kinetic energy to hold it open until the noid switches for the return stroke. The only way to offset the weight differential is to use a lighter spring. I know their is a minimum amount of spring pressure to keep the valve closed without leaking though.

[JawCrusher]

The valve is not open long enough. Part of the weight of the hammer is to hit the valve stem with kinetic energy to hold it open until the noid switches for the return stroke. The only way to offset the weight differential is to use a lighter spring. I know their is a minimum amount of spring pressure to keep the valve closed without leaking though.

Right... I used the UL spring that came with the kit. Should I increase the dwell to offset the problem you speak of?

[Mavrick]

Yes that would be my guess. Your hitting the limitations of pneumatics to energy though.

[chris71383]

I appoligize to everyone for not posting any updates, or getting on this sooner. I should be up and going in approx. 2 weeks. The biggest reson for the delay is that I'm in the process of moving, the good side to this is that I will have more room to work, which means room for more equipment and soon to be setup anno station. Also the weather is finally getting nice after the blizard and 15" of snow last week.

[JawCrusher]

I appoligize to everyone for not posting any updates, or getting on this sooner. I should be up and going in approx. 2 weeks. The biggest reson for the delay is that I'm in the process of moving, the good side to this is that I will have more room to work, which means room for more equipment and soon to be setup anno station. Also the weather is finally getting nice after the blizard and 15" of snow last week.

Chris,

When you get a chance could you contact me regarding your kit? I've tried reaching you via IM and PM's. Having some velocity issues with your kit. Just want to get some tips on how to fix it.

Thanks.

[JawCrusher]

I don't know if it's something I'm doing wrong or what.... Using the UL spring that comes with the kit and dropping my LPR psi to about 70 (even down to 60/50 once), the highest fps I could achieve was 170. I tried everything from increasing the LPR psi to decreasing it, increasing/decreasing the dwell, and of course increasing/decreasing the input pressure and nothing seemed to help. I tried re-installing my SS hammer and I was able to get the fps up but I had some serious shoot-down after a few shots where one ball would travel 5 feet. I ended up reverting back to the original set-up keeping only the aluminum ram intact.

Another problem I experienced was that when my LPR was at the normal 87 psi, both the delrin hammer and the SS hammer would stick causing the valve to stay open.

A couple things about my gun:
-LCD HP... no modifications to the pneumatics past the ram kit.
-Angel Fly board
-Crossfire 800 preset out put HPA tank

Thought I'd post this up here as a sudo-review. I've talked to another member who installed the kit on his LCD who did not have the problems I had so my only thought is that it MAY be my board. Doesn't make sense really as the A4 Fly board works fine with the factory setup.

[poopresearch]

If you are having shoot down there is definitely something up with your marker. Solenoid or snap ring generally cause first shot issues. I would say dwell issues and a dying board if it weren't for the hammer sticking.
The hammer stick issue is curious as well... That does not suggest dwell...

Do you think your breech rods might be bent? Have you ever fired the marker with the breech unlocked? If your breech was out of alignment it could explain all your problems.

Most likely culprit is a ram issue I'd say. The ram tolerance seem extremely tight. Many years ago when replacing the brass hammer with a stainless one, I put the tiniest of gouges on the shaft. Killed the ram and had to buy a new on. I'd say there is an issue with ram shaft finish or there is something up with your assembly of it. Remove the ram and check to make sure it slides smootly and no orings are chopped.

[TheGiant]

I'll take one kit, maybe two. PM me a price when you have them again, VERY interested in this.

Nice work!

[yps]

I am also interested. Please Pm me with a price.

[Pghp8ntballer]

I would greatly appreciate a Pm with information on cost and whatnot.

Thanks.
Anthony

[JawCrusher]

If you are having shoot down there is definitely something up with your marker. Solenoid or snap ring generally cause first shot issues. I would say dwell issues and a dying board if it weren't for the hammer sticking.
The hammer stick issue is curious as well... That does not suggest dwell...

Do you think your breech rods might be bent? Have you ever fired the marker with the breech unlocked? If your breech was out of alignment it could explain all your problems.

Most likely culprit is a ram issue I'd say. The ram tolerance seem extremely tight. Many years ago when replacing the brass hammer with a stainless one, I put the tiniest of gouges on the shaft. Killed the ram and had to buy a new on. I'd say there is an issue with ram shaft finish or there is something up with your assembly of it. Remove the ram and check to make sure it slides smootly and no orings are chopped.

I had no choice but to revert back to the original spring and ram. I kept the aluminum ram shaft in place as it would've been a pain to put the old shaft in and I honestly didn't think the shaft was the problem. After going back to the original setup, the gun worked flawlessly as it did in the past. The ram no longer got stuck. I honestly think it had to do with the UL ram spring that is significantly lighter than the stock spring. What I want to try is re-installing the delrin ram with the normal valve spring. I'll try that and report back here when it's done. My thoughts are that I'll have to increase the LPR so I'm not sure if there is a benefit for doing that. I hope Chris can comment here soon as to what the problem could be.