The REVOLVE MOD is here! [DIY Evolve kit]

[boostmonkey]

The REVOLVE MOD is here! I have created a DIY way to adjust the valve spring force like the Evolve Newton Kit.

By reducing the force necessary to open the valve you can use a

very light hammer and
very low LPR pressure and
very short dwell

to achieve high rates of fire with very little kick.

• Valve spring force reduced 73.4%
• Cycling mass reduced 40.0%

Here is what I Made:
An adjustable length valve spring support bobbin:

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/REvolve/DSCN0752-1.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/REvolve/DSCN0751-1.jpg

By shortening the length of the valve spring bobbin you can reduce the preload force on the valve.

I bought one of the nylon hammers (http://www.angel-owners.com/showthread.php?p=522621) that crownsk8er (http://www.angel-owners.com/member.php?u=24700) makes:

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/REvolve/DSCN0767-1.jpg

Results:

This gun has ALMOST NO KICK. It is ridiculously smooth. I wish I could let everyone shoot it. It is so much smoother and cycles so much faster than stock. With a stock-board’d intellifed Halo I am hitting 25bps peak and maintaining 19bps average! That is FAST for a stock boarded Halo. I preordered a Cheetah V3, I’ll have those results when TAG finishes the board.

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/REvolve/th_DSCN0774.jpg (http://s26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/REvolve/?action=view&current=DSCN0774.flv)


25bps peak capture (http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/REvolve/Revolved25bpspeakTR22.jpg)
19bps average capture (http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/REvolve/Revolved19bpsaverageTR22.jpg)

Settings:
7ms dwell
45psi LPR
260 psi minireg

There is NO blowback. Over the chrono last weekend I was shooting +/- 3.

REvolve is for Flys, A4s, & pre-06 Speeeds.

You can use the stock LPR and add/remove shims to adjust the LPR like the Evolve Light kit, or you can use the externally adjustable JDS LPR and one of my rear-mounted LPR gauges. (http://www.angel-owners.com/showthread.php?t=57776)

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/Angel%20LPR%20Gauge/LPRGauge007small.jpg

I have many calculations and measurements available for anyone who is interested in doing this mod. Ask away for help.

[crownsk8er]

very good , so how you like the hammer?and did you just cut and die the valve thing?

[Carapace]

GENIOUS, PURE FRIGGIN GENIOUS!!!


*claps for boostmonkey!!!!*

[Th3bLaCkNiGhT]

i do like the idea and it seems to work very well. seems you put alot of time and effort into these mods and looks like you do very good work. I must also make a suggestion that you may want to add to these "kits". I would say that having an adjustable amount of tension on a spring is a good idea but another good idea in conjunction with that is to have options for different, lighter tension springs. Just my 2 cents and free up, i love the idea.

[boostmonkey]

very good , so how you like the hammer?and did you just cut and die the valve thing?

Your nylon hammer is a *key component* to the REvolve mod! I love it! I am anxious to see how fast this gun can really shoot with a hopper that can keep up.

Yes, I cut out the center of the valve spring bobbin removing 0.358" total. The space between the radial supports is 1.000" so it is easy to keep track of how much material you are removing. I threaded the remaining sides with a #10-32 die which is the perfect size BTW.

I bought the coupler at my local hardware store. It is obviously threaded #10-32 internally with an easy to turn hex exterior. The coupler was originally 3/4" long. I ground it down to 0.560" long.

These dimensions are not arbitrary. I wanted to use a 7ms dwell for the fastest possible cycling and as low as possible LPR for the least kick; so I aimed for a 75% reduction in valve spring force. As you can see the final measurements came out very close to that (73.4% reduction in valve spring force). Reducing the valve spring force to 25% of original was indeed a "best educated guess", but as the results show, it was just about right. If the force is too small, you will get blowback. If it is too high, you won't be able to run the dwell and LPR to the minimum.

Spending a little time with my handy digital caliper I found the stock valve spring preload compression was 0.488" on my marker. I was surprised it was that much! To get the valve spring force reduction I wanted I needed the spring preload distance to be closer to 0.122". The final measurement after I modified the bobbin was 0.130" of preload, just about what I wanted.

[Carapace]

LIKE I SAID!!!!! Pure §§§§ing Genious!!!

[boostmonkey]

GENIOUS, PURE FRIGGIN GENIOUS!!!


*claps for boostmonkey!!!!*

Thanks Carapace! I elected to sell my LPR gauges since I couldn't find them from a supplier that didn't have order minimums. But you can get the parts for the REvolve mod yourself so I wanted to share with everyone. :smile: I have played one whole day and shot about 3000 rounds since completing the REvovle mod and I LOVE it! I would just like to see everybody get the maximum potential out of their angels.

[boostmonkey]

i do like the idea and it seems to work very well. seems you put alot of time and effort into these mods and looks like you do very good work. I must also make a suggestion that you may want to add to these "kits". I would say that having an adjustable amount of tension on a spring is a good idea but another good idea in conjunction with that is to have options for different, lighter tension springs. Just my 2 cents and free up, i love the idea.

I agree, using lighter springs could accomplish the same result. I looked into that also but decided to go with a threaded adjuster to give more adjustability. Once I took some measurements I felt that the spring rate of the stock spring looked pretty good, but the preload distance seemed high.

If you do decide to look into using lighter spring here is some info:

stock spring uncompressed length 1.316"
stock spring rate 2771 grams/in

With the stock spring preload distance I mentioned above, 0.488", that gives a closed valve preload seat force of 2.982 lb.

With the REvolve mod at my current adjustment, 0.130" of preload distance, the closed valve preload seat force is only 0.794 lb. A scant 26.6% of the original force.

[Technix2002]

I've personally seen this revolve mod in action. Boost was seriously ripping last time we played. From what I could tell it reduced the noise signature also. Personally I had a heck of a time geting my Evolve valve adjusted just right (it now is), but Boostmonkey has his revolve down to a science (literally). I'm not just saying this because he is my best friend...

Boostmonkey: Nice pics and video of the sweet DIY Angel 4 series revolve mod!!

For all others: Look at the first post in this thread, look at the pics, watch the video, gawk in amazement, and try it for yourself! This really could deter your decision about switching from your Angel 4 Fly to something else.

[paintreliever]

Man, I wish I could have thought of this.
GREAT idea boostmonkey!

[boostmonkey]

I stated a 40% reduction in reciprocating mass above. Let me show where that number comes from:

The ram shaft, hammer, and bolt are mechanically linked and all move together. Force from the ram and momentum from this assembly push open the valve.

Crownsk8er's Nylon Hammer 5 grams
Stock Fly hammer 33 grams
Entire ram 40 grams
ram body 23 grams
ram shaft 17 grams
soft face bolt 20 grams

Total reciprocating mass OLD 70 grams
Total reciprocating mass NEW 42 grams 60.0%

So with the nylon hammer reciprocating mass is reduced 40%. This allows the gun to cycle much faster and smoother of course.

By also reducing the force necessary to open the valve with the REvovle adjuster, you still have enough momentum to open the valve sufficiently even with the lightweight hammer and can run a low LPR pressure for reduced kick and a low dwell for speed. All 5 adjustments work together:

Valve spring force
Reciprocating mass
Ram pressure
Operating pressure
Solenoid dwell

[boostmonkey]

I played again all day Saturday with my REvolved Fly and was thrilled with how well the gun performed.

I was shooting X-ball Gold and chose to run a large back, .693”, because it was very humid and hot and I didn’t want any paint/barrel problems. I had to turn the minireg up to 290psi get 285fps with the larger back. Considering that I still have no blowback whatsoever I’ve decided to shorten the valve spring bobbin some more to hopefully be able to bring the operating pressure down a little.

I ground the coupler down to 0.509” and filed the threaded ends of the bobbin some more so that when reassembled the bobbin overall length is 1.488” and the spring preload distance is 0.082”. That gives a spring preload force of 0.500 lbs. See, I was going somewhere with those random seeming measurements. :smile:


That’s right, 16.8% of the stock valve spring force.
If there is still no blowback, I am leaving it there.


I should mention that shortly after I had to turn the minireg up to chrono at 285fps, the battery died in my Angel. I have read on here that a very low battery can cause low velocity, so that may have actually been the reason I had to turn the pressure up higher.

I also beveled the edges of the coupler for better airflow around it. Pictures and field test results will follow.

[KEN CRANE]

Man, I wish I could have thought of this.
GREAT idea boostmonkey!


not to be an ass but bob moon did.....a year ago

[boostmonkey]

not to be an ass but bob moon did.....a year ago

But Bob did not make a nice detailed post with DIY information for everyone. :devil1: I wouldn't either if I had a paintball business; I would sell Evolve kits. That is not a slam. You MTs do a good job patiently answering the same questions month after month on this forum. But I am a not a businessman, I am a DIY tinkerer member so I get all the credit for this thread. :smile:

[crownsk8er]

wow, slam, you could at least credit bob in your post

[KEN CRANE]

not to be an ass but bob moon did.....a year ago


somone always has to come in and poo poo somone elses idea so it may as well be me. its works great on 50% of the guns as long as you have a 14 way that will cycle at the 9-11 ms range. if you reduce the hammer weight below 19 grams the valve does not open far enough during rapid firing. it works awsome at 10 bps but exceed that and you will suffer severe drop off even by reducing the spring rate , during rapid firing drop off occurs. this will account for a severe "arc" in the tragectory of the ball. be careful with lowering the lpr below 55 as this will aserbate the drop off issue. sorry but this is one of the reasons we left this type of mod alone. we tried with magnets,new bobbins, lighter titanium hammers and different spring rates. not sure i should have posted this but ...also be real careful with the nylon only hammers. the faster you try and cycle them the sooner the threads will pull out as they do on every nylon evolve style.also be REAL careful as to the locktite you choose to lock the hammer onto the ram shaft as the lockite attacks the nylon hammer and makes it brittle over time. this wasnt directed at boost monkey as most of his ideas and stuff works awsome. just sharing our experiences over the last 2 years.

[crownsk8er]

so just curious here ken but how light can you sucessfully get the hammer while having enough mass to open the valve completely?

[KEN CRANE]

so just curious here ken but how light can you sucessfully get the hammer while having enough mass to open the valve completely?


19 GRAMS

[boostmonkey]

wow, slam, you could at least credit bob in your post

Wait a minute, what's a slam? I am not sure if you were talking to me or ken. Credit Bob for what? I have never even talked to Bob let alone claimed originality for something I learned from him. I have placed a couple of orders with fixmyangel since I purchased an Angel this spring, and have been very happy with their service.

[crownsk8er]

nah, i was jokin, but bob came up with it, how did you find out?

[hodge1]

Sounds like he used his brain.

boostmonkey, thanks for sharing your info.

[warpedx]

From the sound of it, he came up with the idea on his own. Can't say he's stealing anything here. Good job tinkering, and sounds like you're getting nice and precise with those calipers of yours.

[boostmonkey]

somone always has to come in and poo poo somone elses idea so it may as well be me. its works great on 50% of the guns as long as you have a 14 way that will cycle at the 9-11 ms range. if you reduce the hammer weight below 19 grams the valve does not open far enough during rapid firing. it works awsome at 10 bps but exceed that and you will suffer severe drop off even by reducing the spring rate , during rapid firing drop off occurs. this will account for a severe "arc" in the tragectory of the ball. be careful with lowering the lpr below 55 as this will aserbate the drop off issue. sorry but this is one of the reasons we left this type of mod alone. we tried with magnets,new bobbins, lighter titanium hammers and different spring rates. not sure i should have posted this but ...also be real careful with the nylon only hammers. the faster you try and cycle them the sooner the threads will pull out as they do on every nylon evolve style.also be REAL careful as to the locktite you choose to lock the hammer onto the ram shaft as the lockite attacks the nylon hammer and makes it brittle over time. this wasnt directed at boost monkey as most of his ideas and stuff works awsome. just sharing our experiences over the last 2 years.


I am running my dwell at 7ms and I think technix2002 has his down to 6ms on his Force board. But he has been changing boards like I change socks recently, so he may also have a Fly board installed at 7ms currently. Shooting at twice the rate you said above I still have no shootdown or consistency problems whatsoever. That is even with the LPR at 45psi. I do have a JDS LPR; that may or may not be the reason I am not having shootdown at 20+ bps firing rates. Unfortunately my stock LPR was damaged, so I cannot swap it back in to see how it performs.


I am not surprised that you guys have previously tried stuff like this. :) I have also thought:
As one decreases the operational forces (valve spring force, ram pressure, hammer inertia, solenoid dwell) the frictional forces (ram shaft, bolt, ball passing detents, etc.) are going to become relatively more significant. In general the frictional forces will be less consistent and will vary more from gun to gun. For example, the hammer weight never changes day to day, but smaller field paint one day will push past the detents into the breech by the bolt easier than larger paint one might have used the week before. Even by lowering the LPR pressure, the friction of the LPR piston o-ring against the tube wall becomes a relatively larger contributor to the pistons movement than it was before. Thus consistency could be affected, especially at high firing rates. I have a very well broken in gun and I am a fiend about maintenance/lubrication, so it may be less of an issue for my marker than others.

[boostmonkey]

That’s right, 16.8% of the stock valve spring force.
If there is still no blowback, I am leaving it there.

I also beveled the edges of the coupler for better airflow around it. Pictures and field test results will follow.

I got home and thoroughly checked for blowback and there was none. :smile: I said above that if that setting worked good I was leaving it there. To prove I wasn't lying I Loctited the bobbin adjustment in place. I did use blue loctite though, so I can break it loose if I ever want to break my word. :evilgrin:

I took a picture, but don't have it with me. I'll upload it later.

[boostmonkey]

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c115/superboostmonkey/REvolve/DSCN0775small.jpg

[crownsk8er]

what is the total length og the black part?

[boostmonkey]

what is the total length og the black part?

1.488”

[crownsk8er]

did you use a caliper?

[boostmonkey]

Yes. But I didn't keep track of my tolerances. Let's say +-0.002" on the direct measurements to be fair.

[Devs]

Fantastic stuff boost

[thatguy!]

Very nice. Can't wait to see what you come up with next.

[boostmonkey]

Very nice. Can't wait to see what you come up with next.

Oh the pressure! :watchout: I have to come up with more good ideas?!

I don't know, with the exception of a great hopper, I am really, really happy with my Fly right now. It might not need anything else. :smile:

If TAG doesn't ever get around to releasing a V3 Cheetah board, then I may have to design a Halo board or VLocioty chip. I haven't found a hopper that really makes me happy yet. Since I can buy a Cheetah for only $80, I'd rather not put that much work into it.

[boostmonkey]

I reset my shot counter and kept track of my efficiency Saturday.

Tank: 92/4500 LP Crossfire
Barrel: .689 14" Freak
Paint: X-Ball Gold (loose fit to Freak back)
Velocity: 285
Tank fill: flash filled, gauge read 3900psi before playing.

1871 shots before I stopped playing. I didn't realize it, but the tank output was so low the minireg pressure was dropping.

So lets say 1800 shots off a fast fill on a 92/4500.

[thatguy!]

That's not all that great, Boost.

Come up with something cool to fix it! :)

[boostmonkey]

I didn't think it sounded great to what others have posted either. But I don't think I have seen a single post where someone reset their shot counter and actually checked how many balls they got from a fill. "x # of pods & a hopper full" is not accurate enough for me to consider.

[crownsk8er]

if you have the hammer then do it, if not its been discontinued

[boostmonkey]

I was having some first shot drop off (FSDO) with those settings on my Fly. It wasn't really a problem, but I didn't like it. Today I increased the dwell by one and the FSDO went away completely. That was easy. I was able to turn the minireg down some in response. My new settings are:


minireg: 240psi
LPR: 45psi
dwell: 8ms
hammer: 5gram nylon
valve: low force REvolve
velocity: 285fps
paint/barrel match" rolls or light blow through


This Fly has been absolutely rocking. I may be about done tinkering with it.

[RangerJoe]

I may be about done tinkering with it.
:cryer: :puzzled: we need you to tinker..thats what you do lol

[boostmonkey]

:cryer: :puzzled: we need you to tinker..thats what you do lol

Not too go too far off topic... but don't worry, I can't help it. It's a daggon disease. Maybe if I can content myself with the Angel for a little while (probably not likely as long as AOG & tinkerer's guild exist) I'll get around to building another engine for my turbo Supra or put a decent interior in the Stingray. If I start messing around with audio equipment or overclocking anything you know I have too much time on my hands. :smile: I have been sketching paintball gun internals recently, but it's probably all stuff that was thought of already and then subsequently patented by Smart Parts. ;)

[Carapace]

I hear ya boost, i'm debating on trading my brand new corvette in for a '07 Dodge Viper SRT/10SC.... bitches are TIGHT >:]

[RangerJoe]

my dad has the SRT-10 truck :bouncer:

[Carapace]

NO WAY DUDE O_O! PLEASE take a pic for me! i've always wanted to see one, cuz i've heard of it before but never seen one :D

[RangerJoe]

here ya go :)

[boostmonkey]

an update:

As I have been using a low dwell, low LPR, light hammer, light valve setup I have noticed that it takes a larger change in minireg pressure to change the velocity versus when I had the stock hammer, valve, & dwell setting & LPR at 60-65 psi. Using different brands of paint and different sized freak backs I normally adjust the minireg pressure anywhere from 230 to 270 to get 285 fps.

Yesterday I had to shoot field paint at Splatterpark which was the worst oily, greasy, hard, mishapen, small paint I have ever used. I don't know if it was all the oil on the paintballs (they were covered) or if they were lighter or what it was, but I had to turn my minireg down to 150 psi to chrono at 285 fps. Most everyone was chronoing too high, so I am sure it was the paint, not the gun. But Having to drop the minireg from 240 to 150 psi when switching from Xball Gold to Wrek Elite is a big change.

It may not mean anything, but I thought I would post an update with my observations.

[KEN CRANE]

here ya go :)

now...lets see one with dad blistering the rear skins !

[RangerJoe]

oh boy..hes done it qiate(sp) abit lol...my bro never took a pic yet.