What causes shoot down in a G7?

[APachon]

Both of my G7's experienced severe shoot down, and not only on first shot. What can cause shoot down in a G7?

The description of my markers are in my signature. I sized the paint to .687 with my Stiffi Switch kit.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.

~A

[Trigga Nometry]

Could be that a regulator is not charging fast enough (from HPA, minireg, or LPR).

What are your settings?
Do you only get it when you rapid fire or even when you take single shots?

[El Pirata]

Shootdown come from lack of flow, that's the easy part. The hard part is figuring where exactly the flow is being obstructed. Like trigga said more information is needed in the symptoms to be able to intelligently help you fix your problem.

[APachon]

All setting s are stock. I do nto have the tool guage to determine LPR.

Happens with single trigger pulls with a duration of no more than 2 seconds between succesive shots.

~A

BTW, thanks for the help gents.

[nmcclure]

old hk speed did that, turned out to be slow hpa source. easiest place to start as well, swap tanks with some and go from there

[El Pirata]

Can you fill in as few more details like how you are determining a dropoff as well as it only does it while taking single shots vs long strings.

If it's only visible but not on the chrono then it's probably not shootdown merely inconsistant paint. Now if you are dropping like 50+fps between shots then you probably have shootdown. While it should not, I have found that too low of an lpr can cause some velocity fluctuations of up to +/- 15fps between shots.

[APachon]

it was visible on the chrono. 1st 267, 2nd 283, 3rd 302 (beep), 4th 281, 5th 297, 6th 291, 7th 287, 8th 283, 9th 300, 10th 294.

Tanks are brand new Angel Airs.

Help a brutha out...

~A

[trickytrix]

Well, when you run into a problem like this, you almost have to use the system of elimination. Here are some ideas I have for you.

Completely remove and check LPR - especially the main seal - make sure the radius isn't facing the wrong direction, and that nothing is damaged. A malfunctioning LPR will cause massive drop off, and recocking problems

If both your tanks are new, they probably aren't the problem, however it wouldn't hurt to try someone else's tank - see if you can get a hold of a LP Crossfire - most would agree that's the best tank on the market

Get a guage and check your LPR's pressure - make sure its around 50 psi and then fire the marker and watch the guage to see how quickly it recharges - it should be very quick

Set your dwell to 9

WDP consistently uses LOTS OF LUBE when they assemble angels, so its possible the airways are just coated - tear the marker down and wipe the lube off everything - relube with just a thin layer

I see you're using the DEZign bolt - put your stock bolt back in and see if that makes a difference

Hope something in this list helps

[Toolow]

This is semi related to what you guys are talking about now. I heard it the other day and didnt know if it sounded right.

A guy was trying to explain to me that using a tank like a 450psi output (LP) was inferior, even with LP markers, because the 800psi output (HP) tanks could recharge the gun faster and allow for less "drop off".

Now I read in my G7s manual that you want LP if possible, but HP wouldnt necessary hurt anything. Any smartie pants out there want to set the record straight please?

Thanks in advance.

[trickytrix]

There's absolutely no truth to what you were told. How fast a reg recharges depends on how well its built, not what output pressure its set at. The only thing a high pressure tank will do for you on a G7 is make it next to impossible to get under 300fps (modification of the mini-reg will be required) and give you that much less shots per fill.

[rix123]

...as improbable as one may consider...was it fully charged?

...a weakend battery condition may be adversely affecting solenoid operation which in turn can affect ram operation which in turn WILL affect hammer operation...under 'high draw' conditions this will be more pronounced...

...another consideration is the battery in your Angel AIR systems (nless they are the pre-sets). if they are the electronic AIR systems, you can monitor the recharge rate of your tank as you fire shots, the tank regs LCD will show if your o/p psi is consistent or fluctuating too much. also, if the fills are "too fast", it can damage the small o-ring in the AIR reg which will have negative flow and consistency effects on the marker. Seen this happen w/team mates AIR tanks, quick fix if you have the right sized o-rings....


..you know that old mantra "leg bone connected to hip bone connected to back bone...." ;)

[AngriestAngel27]

I had this problem with my speed 04, the solution was to make sure your tank is Low pressure (450psi) and than the LPR is correct too. If you can resolve after everyone's suggestion you need to bring it to a master tech nearest you!! Good Luck, it is very fustrating when trying to resolve this issue, but I finally got it working with a MT replacing the LPR totally!! :stooges: :notsure: :bouncer:

[Trigga Nometry]

it was visible on the chrono. 1st 267, 2nd 283, 3rd 302 (beep), 4th 281, 5th 297, 6th 291, 7th 287, 8th 283, 9th 300, 10th 294.

Tanks are brand new Angel Airs.

Help a brutha out...

~AThat sounds a lot like inconsistency problems rather than shootdown. During shootdown (or at least extreme shootdown) you literally see the balls drop off about 10-20 feet in front of you when you pull at a high ROF.

If there is nothing wrong with your G7, it couldjust be crappy paint with huge variations in paintball diameter.

[lefty21]

That sounds a lot like inconsistency problems rather than shootdown. During shootdown (or at least extreme shootdown) you literally see the balls drop off about 10-20 feet in front of you when you pull at a high ROF.

If there is nothing wrong with your G7, it couldjust be crappy paint with huge variations in paintball diameter.

In general, what +/- variations in fps second should a chrono read? What's considered severe inconsistency?

[Sparco]

In general, what +/- variations in fps second should a chrono read? What's considered severe inconsistency?

Several inconsistency in my mind is anything +10/-10 or greater. In other words, the first shot is your baseline of 285fps. You want every shot to be within 275-295fps. I think anything worse then that tells me you've got a huge bore barrel on (when shooting small paint) or you've got a bad batch of white box.

As Trigga stated, that chrono reading shows no sign of shootdown. In fact, it's very difficult for most radar chronographs to truely detect shootdown. Take a string of 20 balls fired out of your marker, if each ball progressively missing the target shorter then the previous ball... that's shootdown.

The G7 LPR out of the box on my marker was 60psi on the dot (despite the WDP tool kit gauge reading 50psi), thanks to Ken fancy LPR gauges. Under "load" my LPR dropped to 32psi but would snap back to 56-60psi almost instantly upon stopping. This was with a brand new G7, so the grease was plentiful. He stated to me that as long as the LPR pressure doesn't drop below 30psi during sustained ROFs and climbs back to 45+ before the next shot you shouldn't experience shootdown.

[APachon]

Sparco, what is my condition than? I know it sucked on Sat. Balls would not go as far consistently. Several ppl did have break breaks as the paint was questionable at best.

I am going to get a bag of paint and see what is what.

So what is a good FPS +/- window for a G7??? What should I be looking to be within. ie +/- 5fps or so???

~A

[Sparco]

Apachon: To me it sounds like a paint/barrel match. It is wierd that that your FPS would increase with each shot but it then settled out. Try to conduct some more testing if you have the option. Do a 500 ball test over a chronograph, should take no more than about 90 minutes.

(1) Try to get a decent paint-to-barrel match on the large side.
(2) Set an average mark of the first 25 shots. Fire 25 shots over the chrono, single shot and record each reading. Then take the average as your baseline.
(3) Let the gun sit for 5 minutes, fire 5 shots. The average of those 5 shots should be within +5/-5.
(4) Repeat process with intervals of 10 mins, 15 mins. The average of those 5 "clearing" shots should be within +5/-5. The first shot after letting the marker sit for so long maybe a little out of the ordinary but should not exceed the +10/-10 barrier. This is due to "variables" sometimes beyond your control and should not be contributed to an equipment malfunction.
(5) Fire a string of 50 balls and try to record 5-10 chrono readings during the string if possible. Try to rapid fire fast enough to test the recharge of the pneumatics but slow enough to accurately record the velocity.
(6) Repeat process 4 times adding intervals of 5, 10, 15 minutes between these groupings.
(7) Record results and share.

Seems "intense" but it's the most accurate way to test the true performance of your marker.

[APachon]

Thanks Sparco, Looks like I have some homework.

~A

[Trigga Nometry]

Just curious APachon, how many shots do you have on them know? Are they broken in or have to taken them apart to clean out the excessive grease that WDP uses during assembly? Some claim that if you clean out the excess grease you really do not have to worry about a break in period.

If both are showing the same signs of inconsistency, then it is probably the paint.

[APachon]

Mine is coming up on 20k, of which I bet 17.5 are actual paintball shots rather than dry fire. My second has a lil less than 11k on the clock. I have put a few drops in the Macroline a la Love Juice @ every 5k. I dry fired both 50 shots after every application.

I have not torn them apart yet, but after this weekend, that is on the agenda. What can I look forward to in tearing them down. All the local Angel owners here are saying I should use gun butta. What do you think? If not gun butta, what do you recommend I use?

~A

[Sparco]

Gun butta?

Disassembly is extremely easy... just follow the manual. Honestly, when I put all the components back into the marker I insert them "dry." I'll put a little grease on the lead o-ring and a slight coat on all the other seals but I hardly apply any grease to the components.

[APachon]

Sparco, gun butta is some marker lube (grease) that is sold here in Vegas.

I will look over the directions a few times before I tear into them. I know several other were complaining about the paint we had purchased on Sat.

~A

[APachon]

What grease do you recommend?

[blindman]

although this might not have anything to do with your problem, if you are using an on/off try a different one. i have had problems with on/offs being restrictive with air flow. some get worn down and don't push the pin in all the way. just thought i'd throw in another variable. :)

[APachon]

thanks for the added info Blindman.

~A

[Sparco]

What grease do you recommend?

The love grease is decent. I actually prefer the MT grease. After picking up a small tub from Ken I've been extremely pleased with it's durability. It goes on thick enough to serve its purpose but is incredibly thin. Not to mention it does a pretty good job of not thickening up when dirt mixes with it. It appears to be almost like a watered down vaseline.

[APachon]

Thanks for the advice Sparco, time to place an order for some lube a la MT style. I am still hoping to meet up with you in Denver.

~A

[APachon]

Is there a G7 tool kit yet?

~A

[El Pirata]

Is there a G7 tool kit yet?

~A
Nope, however if you are really needing a toolkit then you can use the standard toolkit but you need to use a grip panel screw to remove the lpr. Since there is no ram adjustment the only thing you really need for a toolkit is the lpr gauge and the lpr removal tool but like I said you can use a grip panel screw to remove the lpr.

[lefty21]

The love grease is decent. I actually prefer the MT grease. After picking up a small tub from Ken I've been extremely pleased with it's durability. It goes on thick enough to serve its purpose but is incredibly thin. Not to mention it does a pretty good job of not thickening up when dirt mixes with it. It appears to be almost like a watered down vaseline.

I did a quick search @ performance angel an couldn't find n e mt grease...help please.

[Trigga Nometry]

Here ya go: http://www.performanceangel.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=303&cat=72&page=1

That is the MT grease. I am pretty sure that is all Ken sells. Although you'll see a pic of the Love Grease. I think he only sells MT Grease. Same with FMA too.

[lefty21]

Here ya go: http://www.performanceangel.com/store/customer/product.php?productid=303&cat=72&page=1

That is the MT grease. I am pretty sure that is all Ken sells. Although you'll see a pic of the Love Grease. I think he only sells MT Grease. Same with FMA too.
thanx

[APachon]

Trigga, how long does that lil grease applicator last?

~A

[Trigga Nometry]

Trigga, how long does that lil grease applicator last?

~AIt actually lasts a very, very long time. Not much grease is needed to lube the o-rings on the regs and ram.

The tube of grease looks real small, but trust me, it'll probably last more than 10 complete services, probably a lot more than that. You do not need much grease when you re-grease the o-rings.

One of the certified techs will probably have a better estimate.

[Sparco]

I was able to grease 8 guns with left over grease off one stick.

[AngriestAngel27]

So did the suggestions above and other pages help you? :stooges:

[APachon]

I will let you all know Sat evening. I have been busy with some business stuff and meeting with lawyers from an accident.

[lefty21]

sorry...quick question bout the lubes....correct me if I'm wrong...there's love juice for oilin the marker up and grease for greezin it down...BUT is there two types of grease? Like air grease and gun grease? What's the dif?

[Trigga Nometry]

sorry...quick question bout the lubes....correct me if I'm wrong...there's love juice for oilin the marker up and grease for greezin it down...BUT is there two types of grease? Like air grease and gun grease? What's the dif?Anything you buy from an MT with the title GREASE in it can be used as the gun grease.

Basically, there is oil and grease. Oil used for the moving parts (with the exception of the bolt/breech) and grease for the non-moving parts (static parts).