Drop off during rapid firing and the LPR

[Trigga Nometry]

I'm just wondering here with not being all that familiar with the Angel set-up and taking a look at the new Evolve LPR Adjustable Cap.

How does this cap work with the stock LPR and what would cause the severe drop-off I get during rapid firing with my Speed 05?

I see from this pic:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v154/TriggaNometry/EN.jpg
(The bottom is the Adjustable Evolve LPR)

That a brass "piston-type" thing (with the black o-ring on it) is in the new LPR Cap. When you make an adjustment to the Cap via the set screw on the point of the cap, it pushes the brass part into the spring. This places pressure onto the LPR's stock brass piston and pushed the piston onto the LPR's springs and shims.

My question(s) is how exactly does this work?

Where does the air come in from the minireg into the LPR and does something actually move in the LPR to control it’s set pressure?

I guess my real question is how does the stock LPR set-up control the pressure in the LPR? I think I am missing the basic understanding of the mechanism of the Angel's LPR.

I want to understand why I am having problems with my Newton set-up and I think that if I understand the LPR and what the Evolve LPR Cap does, I think I might be able to pin-point why I am having drop off.

I realize that the drop off might be a combination of dwell, minireg pressure, LPR, etc... I am wondering what might happen if I have a leak in my LPR.

This thing is driving me nuts with questions, questions, and more questions...

[welted]

i've often wondered the same thing. i'm intersted to see the MT explanation (or anyone else who knows)...

[pblcd225]

I think ken's has stated what he thought about the kit in a different thread......... maybe someone else will shed some light

[Trigga Nometry]

As of this past Wednesday, Ken stated:
...i still am not very happy with mine.

Well see what the MT's say about the kit after they get to really test it out and push it through it's limits. I know we've been waiting for the MT review on the kit but I'd rather wait for a full MT review rather than have them rush out a review.

It'll be interesting to see if several MT's have an issue after they install the kit on several diffrent types of Angels.

Maybe we'll find that your Angel will need a good servicing before the install but I do doubt that is the case with mine. My 05 is only a couple months old and I've only run about 4 cases of paint through it and it does work perfect stock. However, since I spent the cash on the kit, I'd like to get it working!

[Raoul]

That LPR Spring doesn't look very 'square'...

[Trigga Nometry]

Anyone else have any input :dunno: ?

[pblcd225]

I have stated my thought be here I go again:

1-2 cases I also had the same problem with the valve stem o-ring, After I replaced it twice I decide the kit is not worth the problems that are occuring!!!!!

Take my advice:

You have not seen the master techs indorse this product b/c they too are having problems with the kit!!! Its a great mod if you can keep it working all the time, but with all the small problems I cannot take the chance.


Also I'm a bias store owner"who could not wait to test this product" My findings were not what i Thought!!!!(The kit does what it says it does, but it does not talk about all the problems you can have) I think it would have been a Great mod if they would have worked out all the bug before mass production!!!!!
Also if you have not bought this Mod, WAIT in 3-4 weeks I feel somone else is going to release this same mod But without the problems!!!!!!!!!!!!!!*****HINT*****

Here is another thought I added:
Like i Said before I think its hit and miss..... For Andy he has had no problems(which is great cause when the kit is working its awsome) For me I have worked on two different gun and o-ring problem occurs in both guns(not to metion you should not have to supergule a o-ring in place!!)

But anyway After talking to peegee a few times I would agree the customer sevice is Great! but if the problems keep happening it still does not help. I'm sure they are working on a fix for this kit(I think a delrin o-ring would be perfect) but we will have to see.........

Bottom line for me is the kit should have been beta tested more,before it was f/s to the public

[Trigga Nometry]

Bottom line for me is the kit should have been beta tested more,before it was f/s to the publicI could not have said it better myself.

[pblcd225]

I could not have said it better myself.


I would be willing to beat you and I have tested this kit more than most if not all the other poeple on this site. And we have been on the same page with all of the conclusions.

I just wish we could have been part of the beta testing, so these problems would not have occured to poeple who payed 160+ for this mod!


TN- how much time,paint,and air you think you have been through for this testing?

For myself I would say:
Time- 15+hours
Paint-4 cases
Air- not sure I have 5 personal scubas(but alot)

[pblcd225]

Also I know Andy(from richmond riot) got the beta version and it works perfect....but they did change a few things if I'm not mistaken......Maybe he can shed some light on the changes if there were any.

[Trigga Nometry]

Way too much time was spent by me too!

The total for me is at least 10 hours+ of set-up, taking the marker apart several times, and tweaking.
About 2 cases of paint and at least 3 fills between the dry firing and actual firing.
I had to drive to get the fills since I did all the work at home.

It's a shame - I did everything right too. Had the chrono, knew my pressures, I wasn't in a rush, contacted peegee when I had problems.

I agree with you too - Evolve has great customer service. I just dropped them an email stating my problems, concerns, and asked what they could do to help me out.

[Trigga Nometry]

Also I know Andy(from richmond riot) got the beta version and it works perfect....but they did change a few things if I'm not mistaken......Maybe he can shed some light on the changes if there were any.Yeah, that's the thing! It works on some but not on all of them. From what I have been reading, it works on some 05's but not others, some A4's but not others, etc..

It is not just one specific model having the problems.

Boy, the MT's silence on this one is deafening and I can understand why.... That in itself is speaking volumes to me.

[pblcd225]

Hopefully it will work out for you.. As for me I'm back to stock and my gun is problem free;) But I waiting on that certain company to release a mod simliar to this but without the problems.....Lets just cross our fingers and hope someone is out there

[pblcd225]

Boy, the MT's silence on this one is deafening and I can understand why.... That in itself is speaking volumes to me.


LOL I can not agree anymore I just hope the kids pick up on it also! :smile:

[Trigga Nometry]

But I waiting on that certain company to release a mod simliar to this but without the problems.....Lets just cross our fingers and hope someone is out thereNow your peaking everyone's interest! Get ready for a mess of PM's heading your way!

[pblcd225]

Its really just a cry and plea for someone to make it better;)

[Chris777]

Sorry guys

We do watch what goes on these forums and we are addressing the issues.

our biggest problem is our lack of feedback to all those people that are working to make the product work. Please give us a little time and we will make up for all the hours you have spent.

I have been talking to martin ( the guy who invented the valve) today and he assures me that he has one or two ideas. It looks as if the o ring is the weak point of the design, but that can be fixed.

From now on i will be keeping you up to date on whats happening with the development on a daily basis.

Keep the faith - the concept is still a world beater!!

Chris

[Trigga Nometry]

Chris777 - Thanks so much for the update. It means a lot to see and hear that Evolve is addressing the issues and that they are standing by their product.

I think you'll find the best feedback on AOG. If you have any specific questions regarding any of our experiances to date, please feel free to ask.

Good luck with the progress and we all look forward to hearing of your progress. Thanks again for checking in with us.

[pblcd225]

Chris777 - Thanks so much for the update. It means a lot to see and hear that Evolve is addressing the issues and that they are standing by their product.

I think you'll find the best feedback on AOG. If you have any specific questions regarding any of our experiances to date, please feel free to ask.

Good luck with the progress and we all look forward to hearing of your progress. Thanks again for checking in with us.


Well said! I'm glad to see you guys working on this issue,Keep us up to date;)

[anjordan77]

like i said on pbn...the spring stack instead of a spring in the lpr was on the beta version...

and supposedly a weaker oring was on the valve side that they reinforced for the final version...but apparently it must have gone wrong...

now i talked to impact paintball and they do the same as me when installing and put a little bit of lube or love juice on the orings on the valve stem side...which allows them to slide with less friction...they have had no problems yet...i have had no problems yet.. when i put it in...i put the long stem into the angel first...so it gets in that hole way down in there...then i put the mizer on...maybe this can help cure the problem by a simple lube and different order of doing things?

just trying to help everyone out, and i'm more than willing to look at them if you want to send them to me and i'll send them back if you include the same amount for shipping...i'm a pballer too so i can't afford to pay for everyone returning their stuff to me...

good news is, 6month warranty on evolves side, and they stand by their product thru the good times and the bad...like the shady oring problem...but i know they'll have a solution soon that will be good to everyone.

[Scott7d]

Just posted on PBN about this, But ive had 2 probs, FSDO, and shootdown. Both were cured by adding shims, and upping LPR about 5 lbs. But have a new prob with shoot down. Settings were.
LPR-50
dwell-9
input-whatever to shoot 290's

everything was working great, compinsated for the lack of a shim or 2, but running dwell at 9 and LPR at 50 instead of 45, added the shims i needed and kept same settings and now getting shootdown HORRIBLY. Even when i put it back to the same settings as before, i cant cure it, but im goin to try running it with out the evolve adjuster when ever i can see if it helps. Also, but gun is kicking quite a bit, really no difference than before. Im not worried about anything because this kit worked good on it before and I know it can again, ill just let the evolve guys do theit tweaking and wait for some news.

[anjordan77]

let us know any more news...and i hope you find your swinline stapler

[Trigga Nometry]

Just posted on PBN about this, But ive had 2 probs, FSDO, and shootdown. Both were cured by adding shims, and upping LPR about 5 lbs. But have a new prob with shoot down. Settings were.
LPR-50
dwell-9
input-whatever to shoot 290's

everything was working great, compinsated for the lack of a shim or 2, but running dwell at 9 and LPR at 50 instead of 45, added the shims i needed and kept same settings and now getting shootdown HORRIBLY. Even when i put it back to the same settings as before, i cant cure it, but im goin to try running it with out the evolve adjuster when ever i can see if it helps. Also, but gun is kicking quite a bit, really no difference than before. Im not worried about anything because this kit worked good on it before and I know it can again, ill just let the evolve guys do theit tweaking and wait for some news.Sounds like exactly what happened to be.

I am still waiting for someone to explain how the Newton LPR Cap and stock LPR works.

It looks like the air enters of LPR chamber and works it's way around the brass part that is sitting in the LPR piston (the spring pushes it into there). The brass part has three milled lines in it that appears to be there to let air enter the LPR piston.

So, if shoot down is occurring, then the air is being restricted thru this part of the Newton LPR, no?

If it did not void the warranty, I'd put the piece on a lathe and drill press and drill a hole right down the center of the piece so that the new hole lines up with the LPR piston's hole. Of course you'd then have to drill a hole perpendicular to the new part so that air will enter the brass part, take a 90 degree turn and do into the LPR piston. That would improve the flow into the LPR piston and maybe get maximum recharge rate with the Newton LPR Cap?

Of course, this is just speculation. I still do not understand how the new and current LPR works! Anybody? I could be completely wrong.

If I knew, I'd make some brand new parts via CNC and try it out myself rather than mod the Newton parts and void the warranty.

[Scott7d]

trigga, i just posted this on PBN, give it a try if you havent!

UPDATE: i think i have some useful information for you people that have correct settings, and still have FSDO or shoot down, its kinda common sense, and some people are all ready doing it, but heres what i did.

My settings were lpr-45psi, Dwell-9, inline-whatever to shoot 290fps.
I set my gun up with these settings and had slight FSDO and HORRIBLE shoot down, but was shooting 290. I didnt have a tool kit handy check LPR without the newton cap, so heres what i did.

left dwell and inline alone, I removed the newton cap, along with 2 additional shims,put the standard front cap on and chrono'd. I was shooting like 345fps. I did this back and forth, adding/removing shims till I get a desired fps. Finally i was able to get about 298-310fps. This meant my lpr was alittle more than 45psi, because my dwell, and inline were in the same settings, as when the newton cap was on. Hope that makes sense.

I figured this was close enough, so i just tuned the inline down to shoot consistant 290's. So, my lpr was a tad higher than 45 like i wanted, but just turned the inline down to compinsate.

Then came the moment of truth, time to shoot. I turned gun off, regassed, to make sure i had no FSDO, and i didnt, i was pleased.

Then put my vic board and fastest settings and fired away.
...............Unbelievable!!! 24bps on TR 4, NO drop off and it was spitting them out like crazy. people in the shop were like "WTF!!11eleven!1".

So, if you have no tool kit and have FSDO and drop off here are the steps.

1. Put the settings you want with the whole kit on. Chrono to whatever you want with neccasary steps, reguardless of FSDO and shootdown.

2. Remove your newton cap, and also take 2-3 shims out with it, and replace the cap, with your stock cap.

3. this whole process leave dwell and inline alone, then chrono, if you are shooting about the same as you were before after taking some shims out, then you know the LPR is going to be the same or close to it, as before with the newton cap on. If you get close to a desired FPS, you can just leave the LPR alone and do the rest of the adjusting with the inline.

If anyone doesnt understand some of these steps just let me know, pretty much all you are doing is running the kit without the adjuster cap, and these steps will make sure your LPR is where it needs to be with the evolve goodies, or close to it, without having the guage that comes with an angel tool kit.

this process did wonders for me, the only thing im still not satisfied with is the kick, but i dont care anymore. Everything else it working great, and i have the fastest gun on the team.

__________________

[Trigga Nometry]

Thanks! I will give that a try too. After the freakin' Blizzard of 2005 is over.

[Trigga Nometry]

Regarding my Post #23 above, would the attached modification work on the Evolve Newton LPR Cap. If two holes are drilled in the piece shwon, woun't that help with air flow into the LPR and help it's recharge rate when using the Newton LPR Cap?

I am thinking that a stock LPR has ntohign to inhibit the flow into the LPR piston but the Evolve Kit does. The air has to go around the piece shown and work it's way into the three milled lines and then into the LPR piston.

Of course the new part would be made out of a hardened metal because the holes would lessen the strength of the part. That is real easy to make.

Any thoughts or can anyone explain how the darn stock or Newton LPR works?

[Trigga Nometry]

I can't believe that no one knows or can explain how the LPR works.....

Gonna have to take matters in my own hands and make make the new part for myself and see if it works...

[El Pirata]

Can you restate the question because I am interested in helping you. Andy just installed one in mine yesterday and I see some things I really like. Very simple design.

[Trigga Nometry]

Can you restate the question because I am interested in helping you. Andy just installed one in mine yesterday and I see some things I really like. Very simple design.Sure.

I am wondering interested in learning two items:

1. How does the stock LPR work? I am trying to learn how it actually works and regulates the LPR's psi. I understand the effect of adding and subtracting shims, but not exactly how it works.

2. Based on #1 above, how does the Newton Evolve LPR Cap work with the LPR. Does putting pressure on the adjusting cap (turning the adjusting screw in) simply have the effect of subtracting springs?

With this information, I want to try and understand why my particular Newton LPR has horrible shoot down at 50psi yet it does not have shoot down at 50psi when the stock LPR (no Newton) only during rapid fire. It sounds like a flow issue in the Newton design when it is on my Angel.

I like the design too but with the spring and brass part, it just looks like there could potentially be some air flow problems.

Again, I am just guessing but if it is, I want to see if I can possibly get more flow into the LPR's piston (if that is the direction it flows) by making a new part.

[El Pirata]

Here's how it works. The LPR allows air to come in until the pressure reaches a specified level in accardance with the springs and shims. The more the number os shims the higher the pressure and the smaller the space for air. Fewer shims, the exact opposite.

Now the Evolve LPR instructions tell you to set the LPR to 100psi before you install their lpr adjustor. The reason for doing this is to allow the LPR pressure to be manually adjusted to anything between 0 - 100psi externally.

The Evolve LPR kit comes with 4 basic parts, left to right and these are my names so don't get your panties in a knot, the LPR Cap, the shaft, the spring and the cone. The LPR cap you pretty much can figure out without explanation.

Tha shaft merely is a spacer. If you have the know how, I'm thinking about getting DEZ to try this, you could make a longer shaft to fit a longer LPR cap allowing it to be more similar to a volumizer. Now the spring, very very little job and almost unnecessary. Basically the spring is an alignment tool. Now we come to the cone. This is the Wonka's Golden Ticket to the whole assembly. You will see on the cone itself there are 3 milled groves for air to pass through the lpr.

Now that we know what parts are in the kit how do they work. With the LPR set at 100psi the air chamber is smaller as I said earlier, now when you screw in the LPR cap you are compressing the WDP LPR springs and enlarging the air chamber and closing off the LPR valve sooner with less amount of pressure. The further you screw in the less and less the pressure. The reason being the air chamber is getting larger and larger and the LPR is closing sooner and sooner so it is only allowing a smaller amount of pressure into the chamber.

You are really doing the exact same thing when removing spacers fron your LPR. Each spacer is about 5psi of pressure decrease or increase. Now be reomving the spacers the air pressure gets into the air chamber and closes the valve once filled.


Now here's a theory, part is fact like the volume decrease, to why the LPR is having recharge problems with the Evolve kit, the air chamber has gone from a huge one stock from WDP to a tiny one with the evolve kit. The additional parts that are now in the LPR chamber are taking up a great deal of space that air used to occupy. When in a rapid fire mode it has less of a ready supply of air and the soleniod is taking the only air available which is less pressure and using it to cycle the ram. The ram in a starved state will hit the valve with less force making the valve open less time than it should and thus getting drop off.


I hope this sheds some light to what you were looking for. The attached graphic both shows what I was talking about and the fact I might have a few clues about air flow but absolutely none when it comes to making graphics.

[Trigga Nometry]

Excellent post El Pirata! That is the kind of explanation I was looking for. Thanks so much. It makes lot of sense. That gives me something to work with.

But if the spring is merely a guide or alignment part for the parts to fit together, why not make one part that combines the cone and the spacer in one piece with a piece that is stronger than the brass so you can use less material and not sacrifice the volume needed during rapid firing? Hmmmmmmmm....

[Trigga Nometry]

Now that I think about it, I think the Newton Spring must serve some function because if it did not compress when setting the adjuster, it would just be moving a given volume into the LPR and then the volume for the LPR would not change (you would just be moving it in or out but NOT change the volume).

I think when you screw the adjuster in (to increase the volume and lower the psi), the spring must compress because that is where the descrease in the volume chamber. No?

[El Pirata]

The idea of drilling holes into the cone is a great idea. The hole that goes lengthways will allow another route for air to flow and thus faster. The lateral hole might not do as much as expected but every little helper counts. I am thinking the cone could be shaved to make it smaller as well as the air channels could be enlarged. This will both increase the volume of the air chamber and decrease the recharge time.

[El Pirata]

Ya know I am quite certain the spring had a higher calling with Newton but what kind of excapes me. It does not seem like it has enough tension to do anything in the kit other than use for an aligment tool. Like I said I might con DEZ into doing a mod or two on my evolve lpr side. If he does not or we can't get the results I want I'll just go back to a volumizer on the left and the evolve on the right.

[Trigga Nometry]

Sounds like a good idea.

For a while, I could not drop my Newton LPR below 65psi, no matter what I did. Now after reading your post I bet that my cone part was probably hung up on the spacer part. It fits real loose on my kit. When I first screwed it in, I thought to myself that there could be a chance that the cone part might not perfectly align it's way into the spacer part. It (the cone part) just wobbles around too much in the spring.

After I make a new cone part, I am going to either solder or glue the spring to the cone part to help. I'm not sure yet.

[El Pirata]

40 psi was the bottom end of my lpr until I removed 4 shims and them 40 is near midrange. I am not sure what pressure Andy put on my LPR but ti was 40 before he started and mathmatically he added 12 shims to make it 100psi, theoretically. He would have done it with air but neither of us had any as well as I wanted to do the kit myself. The only thing I really wanted him to do was remove the old hammer, something that I could do but I'd be running a big rist of scaring the shaft. Hence, why I wanted him to remove it.

[P8ntSlinger44]

This sounds as though Evolve should have realized this when they were testing the kit. So much for those beta testers whey were looking for. From what I gather they weren't very good testers because this is kind of problem doesnt just go unoticed by testers and the company. Something smells fishy.

[esandov]

Settle down, let us not become conspiricy theorists.

Pirata, Trigga, excellent posts keep up the good work, I am intregued by your ideas and am looking forward to some beta testing of some of your own.

[P8ntSlinger44]

Well im just saying, that if the brass piece in there in in fact the problem, then it wasnt all that hard to isolate the problem. Seams that should have been the first thing to look at for problems with drop off. If El Pirate could figure it out (if that in the problem), then Im sure Evolve should have been able to if there was actually GOOD and relevant testing done.

[Scott7d]

El Pirata, you said the reason the LPR needed to be at 100psi before the kit, was so you could adjust it from 0-100psi.

Say my LPR is 50psi without the adjuster on. If I put it back on, and didnt add any shims before hand, and adjusted it to the maximum, it would not exceed 50psi correct? because this seems like a way to tell what my LPR is internally without having an angel tool kit.

In short, is the maximum LPR setting with the adjuster on, going to be equal to your LPR before even putting it on?

[Scott7d]

I just tried what i was talking about above. I had a feeling my LPR was a tad higher than what was needed and I was right. With the adjuster all the way out, it read right at 60PSI. I took out 1 shim, and gassed it up again, and it read right at 45psi. Hopefully I can run it that low and not have probs with dwell at 9 or 10. I ran out of air so Ill head to the shop tomorrow and see what results I can get. Hopefully I dont have to add another shim again, because it had some kick at 60psi, but, had no shootdown or FSDO.

EDIT, im not sure if this has been discussed, but running your inline at 250-300, is it possible that a LP tank (crossfire-450 output) could also cause shootdown? Ive always heard you should stay 150-200 LBS over what your inline is, and thought maybe this could be cutting it close.

[El Pirata]

You had kick at 60psi. It's not the air that makes the kick, it's the moving parts, like the hammer. While it's possible with the light hammer it's not probable.

Also what's with you always removing shims then inreasing the pressure. If I have any problems with shootdown I'll lose the evolve lpr kit and switch back to the standard lpr with a volumizer.

[Scott7d]

Also what's with you always removing shims then inreasing the pressure.


I know when I used the cap, my LPR before hand at the very least was 90PSI with the shims I added. If I said somewhere I took out shims, then turned up the pressure in the cap, must have been a typo
:notsure:

[anjordan77]

i believe evolve tested in their 3 angels, and also gave about 10 of them out for a bunch of us to test out. we had no problems so far. apparently it's other users with the problems. they actually shot a whole bulk tank thru one of their guns to see if any problems would occur which is by far more shots than we have shot.

[El Pirata]

Andy, you might want to change your sig since I bought the last Evolve kit from you this past weekend.

[anjordan77]

haha, done in 2 seconds

[El Pirata]

I guess that's like rodeo, 8 seconds, ha!

[P8ntSlinger44]

No, I WIN!! :thefinger :evilgrin:

[chillum]

I have an idea what the spring is for in the evolve lpr. Perhaps it's for returning the shaft towards the end cap when it's been adjusted too far in ?