Dwell light, efficiency, etc...

[Snowfire]

Ok, so somehow I lost my angel instruction disc. Anyways I thought i had my dwell at 3 lights, but i may have turned down something else. I am thinking this cuz I just fired about 400 shots, and the psi went from 4000 to 2000 on my conquest 68/4500. My LPR is at 65, and velocity is around 290. So, what happened? I am almost positive i did turn down the dwell, so why is my gun so in efficient?

[Neo]

first off, wouldnt turning down the dwell make it more efficient??

[chirogator]

Turning down the dwell keeps the valve open a shorter period of time, therefore it should make it more efficient.

Leaking somewhere?

[Snowfire]

I know, sorry if I didn't say that. Ya my dwell is at 9 i just got my manual. NO leadk

[Neo]

then your problem must be elsewhere - take it to your proshop

o, maybe it was a HORRIBLE paint to barrel match? and i mean HORRIBLE, because its hard to lose that much efficienty from a bad match

[Snowfire]

well, the shots were pretty tight, so i dont think its that

[El Pirata]

For the record, the dwell setting has little to no bearing on the efficiency of the marker. Lower dwell = higher pressure + less volume. Higher dwell = lower pressure + higher volume. Dwell settings take the same amount of air out of the tank as the other. One takes more pressure but less volume whereas the other takes less pressure but more volume and other setting between the extremes are a combination of the factors above.

[pimpsta05]

dude the dwell is the time the microswitch stays down so it therefore lets out more air if its higher.it doesnt change the pressure. just if you have a lower pressure you need a higher dwell so you can get your velecity high. You use a low dwell with high pressure because you dont need more air to get the velocity you want

[shaq787]

i think what pirate was saying was that the same volume of air is being used, it is just being used in different ways. if the dewll is open for 12ms it lets air through at 200psi ( i dont know if that pressure is right, just a number to be used for comparrasin) if the dwell is open for 7ms and the pressure in is 250psi (another number for refrence)the same amount of air is used. if it is not the same volume it is really cloce.

pirate, if thats not what u meant then just correct me.

[Neo]

i dont know if this is right cuz i dont know everything about dwell, but maybe it changes how much the valve is opened in addition to how long - which would change the pressure

shorter dwell - bigger opening, less time

longer dwell - smaller opening, more time

[El Pirata]

shorter dwell - bigger opening, less time

longer dwell - smaller opening, more timeThe first part and the end part are correct. The valve opening, which I am assuming is the opening you are referring to, is the same no matter what. The time it stays open is dependent upon dwell time.

Let's say you have your dwell set to 7ms and you are running 250psi into the marker and acheiving 290fps. By changing your dwell to 12ms and keeping the pressure at 250psi you are more than likely going to be shooting upwards around 350fps+/-. In addition to having balls that are going too fast you are also using almost twice the amount of air to propel the balls. The air inefficiency is caused because the valve is open longer but the input pressure is the same as it was when the valve was only open for a shorter period of time.

However if you adjust the input pressure down you will be able to lower it to 290fps but your input pressure will be lower, say as low as 150psi. At this stage your efficiency should be equal, or nearly so, to when you were shooting 7ms dwell time and 250psi input. Now if you drop your dwell back down to 7ms keeping the input pressure you will have a most efficient marker. So efficient you will literally get nearly twice the number of shots as you used to be getting. There's one flaw to this magnificent efficiency, your velocity will be lacking to say the least. It's possible you might be able to get 200fps if the wind is right.

Regardless of whether you are running with a dwell time of 7ms @ 250psi or you are running a dwell time of 12ms @ 150psi you are still taking the same quantity of air from the tank. The shorter dwell time + higher pressure is taking more pressre from the tank but less volume from the tank. Longer dwell time + lower pressure is taking less pressure from the tank but more volume.

I wish there was some scientific type that could explain the hows and whys it is using the same amount either way, +/-. The numbers used here were just numbers thrown out there and are only meant as examples but not to use as exact numbers for those pressures or dwell times.

[Neo]

scientific type?
hydrodynamics anyone?

looking at the equation of continuity:
(A1)(v1) = (A2)(v2) where A is area and v is velocity

since P = F/A P is pressure and F is force
A = F/P

substitute

(F/P1)(v1) = (F/P2)(v2)
no F1 or F2 because the forces are the same

now substitute L/t for v (distance divided by time) and you get:
(F/P1)(L/t1) = (F/P2)(L/t2)

you can cancel out F and L because they remain constant, thus:
1/((P1)(t1)) = 1/((P2)(t2))

inverse both sides and you get
(P1)(t1) = (P2)(t2)

there you go, its a modified version of the equation of continuity. this shows that the longer your dwell (t) the less pressure you need, and also the other way around.

does this help?

[Neo]

sidenote: el pirata the reason i suggested the different sizes of openings is because i didnt think changing the input pressure was a factor. tho technically, using that equation above you could change the size of the opening to do the same task without adjusting your input pressure. maybe an idea for the people at wdp?

[Snowfire]

I still dont know why I only got 600-700 shots on a full fill.

[Neo]

take it to your proshop

[Snowfire]

,my pro shop probably cant figure it out they are like, uhhh, DUH!

[AngelBoi]

ya...my pro shop tried to say there was an adjustment button on the board for eye adjustments for paint, dont trust ANYTHING they say without proof...

ab

[Snowfire]

yup

[El Pirata]

sidenote: el pirata the reason i suggested the different sizes of openings is because i didnt think changing the input pressure was a factor. tho technically, using that equation above you could change the size of the opening to do the same task without adjusting your input pressure. maybe an idea for the people at wdp?Now this is the second time I've been lost, what are you meaning openings?

Here are a few things about efficiency that have not been mentioned. LEAKS LEAKS LEAKS. Most specifically air leaks. A little on the air line, a little from an lpr or valve cap, a little from a valve not seating, a little from your bottle, etc.... All adds up.

Personally I use a solution of soapy water and a spray bottle to look for leaks I would advise it to anyone because liquid and electronics do not mix. If you opt to use soapy water be exceptionally careful in an around the electronics. Spray a little bit on all fitings, lines and caps. Look for bubbles being formed after you have sprayed, you'll know when you have a leak.

If you are unsuccessful in finding a leak that way you should take it to an Angel tech. Personally I'd tinker with it until I fixed it or I destroyed my Angel but I don't recommend that routine of fixing things to anyone.

[El Pirata]

ONe more thing, how many shots do you have through your marker? The reason I ask is that during the break in time your efficiency and consistancy could leave a lot to be desired.

[drewbug3]

i know this is off the subject but he lost his cd, and i was wondering why some of us got a book and some a cd ? :stupid:

[Neo]

Now this is the second time I've been lost, what are you meaning openings?

Here are a few things about efficiency that have not been mentioned. LEAKS LEAKS LEAKS. Most specifically air leaks. A little on the air line, a little from an lpr or valve cap, a little from a valve not seating, a little from your bottle, etc.... All adds up.

Personally I use a solution of soapy water and a spray bottle to look for leaks I would advise it to anyone because liquid and electronics do not mix. If you opt to use soapy water be exceptionally careful in an around the electronics. Spray a little bit on all fitings, lines and caps. Look for bubbles being formed after you have sprayed, you'll know when you have a leak.

If you are unsuccessful in finding a leak that way you should take it to an Angel tech. Personally I'd tinker with it until I fixed it or I destroyed my Angel but I don't recommend that routine of fixing things to anyone.

openings as in how much the valve is open.

[El Pirata]

If you are referring to the distance the valve is opened, I don't think there's any way to change that unless you change the ram stroke distance which a different ram would be able to do. There are only 2 things limiting the range of motion for the ram, the stroke distance of the ram and the air pressure pushing the ram. If the ram reaches the end of it's stroke it's going to stop. If the ram runs out of sufficient pressure to make it move it will stop. Unless you have your ram cycling at some ungodly low pressure like 20psi you should not have to worry about insufficient pressure or the ram not opening the valve far enough.

[SYROUS]

I had the same problem with my speed when i first got it. I had a 45 3000 tank when i first got my speed and i had to refill almost every game. I had the same problem with my new legionar 71/4500 tank where I went through a half tank on 3 hoppers of paint. I finaly adjusted my ram to have a heavy click when breech door closes when speed is aired up. That seems to do the trick where now i only go through around 200-250 psi per hopper greatly improving efficancy from before. Will have to wait till next practice to see full results on how many hoppers of a full fill. Hope this helps.

[Snowfire]

Hmm, that could be it too, cuz i am having my hammer (not ram) moving back. UH the marker is a DREAM except for this.

[pelham]

El, pardon my ignorance, but theoretically, will a higher dwell & lower input cause less "kick" and make the gun quieter? Right now I am running a 12" stiffi and it still sounds like a cannon.

Thanks

[El Pirata]

I'm too old and deaf to tell you which is quieter. They will each have their own distinct tone. I will say that longer dwell times to make the kick less.

[Bigal1]

Ok, so somehow I lost my angel instruction disc.


You got an instruction disk? As in a CD? How did you get it?

[Snowfire]

Um, they gave it to me?

[Neo]

Um, they gave it to me?

they = wdp? or they = some shop

[Snowfire]

wdp?

[Neo]

wdp?

as in the company that makes angels. (maybe i misunderstood your question)

i wanted to know who it was that sent you that cd. like did you order it from wdp or get it thru a middle man?

[Stunt10011]

ive never heard of CD's coming from WDP. did someone just burn the manual onto a disc or something?

[shaq787]

my 05 came with a CD from WDP. no printed manuel.

[Bigal1]

bought two speed 05's in past three months and neither came with a cd. both had manuals.

[Snowfire]

I
received
a
manual
as
a
CD
from
WDP

[Bigal1]

well, it rhymes...

kind of.

[Neo]

back when i shot my cocker i got a cd instead of a manual with my xoniks when i bought it. it came from a local shop (one i dont go to anymore cuz they suck). they told me they downloaded the pdf file of the manual from the internet and burned it on a cd. somehow they screwed up because the only thing on the cd was a file that contained the xoniks logo haha

[shaq787]

this is what mine came with

[Neo]

not cool lol. do you know if theres anything on there that isnt in the manual? (maybe you dont know cuz you never got the manual haha)

[shaq787]

thats all that was in the box. i just went to school and printed it out, im gonna get it bound at staples like my old speed manuel(it was a photocoppy)

[Neo]

Okay, I just got back from the field today and I finally got use an LPR gauge on my speed. I have it set at 64 psi, with a medium volumizer. The input pressure is 425 psi and my dwell is 9 ms. Velocity is around 272.

I was just wondering if anyone had any comments about that, or maybe about changing one of those settings. I do understand that all markers are different and it's hard to figure out exactly what to do without tinkering around with it in person but I figured it couldn't hurt to ask.

[shaq787]

is 425 your tank pressure or the operating pressure? if its the tank pressure then just use whatever works for you. i have my tank set at 400 and my lpr at 55-60, it operates fine.

[Neo]

tank pressure, i dont know my operating pressure - how do you check that?

[El Pirata]

You can get your operating pressure by buying a 0 - 300 gauge. You'll need to remove the LPR gauge off the portion that attatches to the marker and screw in the 0 - 300 gauge. The screw the newly modified tool into the valve side of the marker and screw in. Add air and you're golden. To make changover a little easier I am now using a 90 degree elbow on the 0 - 300 gauge and I add a little teflon tape when I put the tool together.

[Neo]

You can get your operating pressure by buying a 0 - 300 gauge. You'll need to remove the LPR gauge off the portion that attatches to the marker and screw in the 0 - 300 gauge. The screw the newly modified tool into the valve side of the marker and screw in. Add air and you're golden. To make changover a little easier I am now using a 90 degree elbow on the 0 - 300 gauge and I add a little teflon tape when I put the tool together.

does the pressure change when you put on a volumizer? if so, how do you compensate for that difference in psi, since you cant have a volumizer on the valve side while a gauge is screwed into the valve side.

[El Pirata]

No, the pressure does not change when you add a volumizer. The volume changes but not the pressure.

[Neo]

thank you much

[El Pirata]

Anytime.