15BPS Cap in the PSP and CFOA

[Raoul]

No Ramping, No Bouncing, Semi-Only.

Sounds like the woodsies are the only ones that get to have fun now....

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=738147

So how do you keep an Angel from shooting more than 15BPS? Gravity-Feed Hopper? Springs behind the Trigger? ;)

[splatman2k]

I highly doubt that this will happen. I'll believe it when I see an official notice. I don't trust people's "inside knowledge" that they post in forums. Smells like a load of crap.

[Icehawk]

Turn off antichop and set the cap at 15bps?

Anyways, I don't really have any probelms with this rule. Maybe just have the markers fire a steady 15 bps if the user is pulling any faster to get around the cap issue. Other than that, I don't think I have any objections.

[Furby]

Heh...The NPPL is going to be BUSY this year....

[Presto333]

if thats true then thats the lamest thing ive ever heard. So many reasons y thats a stupid move, and i just don't want to type them all. But seriously, 15 bps cap, gayest thing ive ever heard of.

[warpedx]

It might be lame, but it is one way to control the gun issue. There are many different ways to help achieve a higher rate of fire. Be it electronic ramping, full auto, mechanical bounce, etc... To let all that be, short of full auto, and just limit the overall rate of fire is not an entirely bad approach.
But yep, it's still a rumor. I'll believe it when I see it.

[Raoul]

It seems like a done deal, at least as far as the CFOA is concerned. There's a quote in that thread from Larry (CFOA?):

"Now for the record:
The maximum rate of fire for all guns at CFOA events (from this point forward) will be 15 balls per second.
The rule STILL says: One shot, one pull.
Ramping chips and bouncing guns are still deemed illegal."

And then he goes on about how you'll need to buy a specially designed chip that limits ROF to 15, blah, blah.....

They did this in Formula1 and it werkt. They gave all the teams a chip that they were required to incorporate into their car's electrionics. The FIA could then plug into it before and after a race and check for mods to the software (launch control, traction control, etc.). It was the only way to level the playing field between the large resource teams and the smaller ones.

[sharps990]

its on nation

not the most credibal sourse

i wouldnt trust this till i saw it on psp or anyother website

sharps

[Raoul]

It's on 68Caliber also...

http://www.68caliber.com/news/tournament/story04586.php

15bps cap in PSP and CFOA?
By Dale Ford
Dec 9, 2004, 21:16

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Rumors and speculation are going around on the internet that the CFOA and PSP are to institute a 15 bps cap on player's markers for the 2005 season.

There's some disagreement as to whether or not ramping, bounce or other enhanced modes will be allowed to get to the mandated cap. In an attempt to get some clarification on this issue, I emailed Larry Motes and Josh Silverman of the CFOA, and Lane Wright of the PSP. Thus far Mr. Silverman was kind enough to send along this response:

While I cannot speak for Paintball Sports Promotions as I am neither employed or empowered by them to do so, I CAN speak for the CFOA, presented by National Paintball Supply. Promoter Larry Motes and myself, and several other advisors and members of the Advisory Board have indeed been examing this issue to great length. While we cannot, at this time, announce an official rule in regards to ramp, bounce and balls-per-second, I can say with complete confidence that things WILL change in the CFOA during the 2004 off-season that will directly affect the 2005 tournament season in our league. We view the issue as one of safety of our players, referees, staff and spectators above all else and feel that something MUST be done to reign-in the gun cheats, cheater boards, trigger bounce and high rate of fire before a player or other person is severely injured, blinded or worse. We value our players as friends, neighbors and in some cases family, as well as paying customers, and while we do not wish to place too many limitations on their equipment, we feel that our league must make a decision, take a stand and create rules to keep our games safe that are as enforceable and fair as possible for all of our players. As soon as the actual rules regarding this issue are written, reviewed, approved and inserted into our new 2005 rulebook, they will be immediately released for our players and the media.

--Joshua D. Silverman, Sponsorship Coordinator and Media Liaison, Carolina Field Owners Association

If and when a response is gotten from the PSP, I'll post it here ASAP.

[Presto333]

i just think they should work more on cracking down against cheater boards in other ways, instead of limiting a players ability. Im sure most if not all of the ppl playing these big leagues can do over 15 w/out bounce. They should try to do sumtin else, like checking all the boards for ramping ability or sumtin. I just think this is an injustice to all the players that don't rly on cheater boards for skill.

[drkanglr]

i just think they should work more on cracking down against cheater boards in other ways, instead of limiting a players ability. Im sure most if not all of the ppl playing these big leagues can do over 15 w/out bounce. They should try to do sumtin else, like checking all the boards for ramping ability or sumtin. I just think this is an injustice to all the players that don't rly on cheater boards for skill.

There have been plenty of attempts to keep cheater boards and ramping boards and just blatently illegal markers off the fields for awhile. None of the techniques seem to work. Between people overshooting, wiping, and just blowing paint around at 30bps, someone is going to get hurt. I know I don't want to be the ref on a field when someone puts 8 balls on somebody's goggles during a bunker move and blows the lens out. And I'd like it even less if it's a team mate or myself. By setting a limit that is the same for each marker, you're leveling the field for everyone. It heightens the need for accuracy, strategy, and team work. I would like to see the limit higher than 15, but I don't see how any higher than 18 or 20 at the most would be a good idea. I am interested to see how they plan on implementing and enforcing the rule. It doen't do any good to have the rule and have everyone ignore it w/ out penalty. I'll be a good story to keep an eye on.

[anjordan77]

ok, so i'm hearing alot of talk about CFOA and PSP making a semi auto only 15bps cap on all markers and being enforced with radar refs...

is wdp going to make some sort of mode available so we can do 15bps semi auto for psp and cfoa and then also the normal semi auto mode for nppl?

[iwanaspeed]

I do not no but that is stupid :pissed: :wall:

[rix123]

...hmmm, for the A4 and above series owners, I can only suggest RTFM...especially the "Advanced Menu" section on setting the MROF :pat:

[jb12]

Yes, rix, you can set the MROF with the paint sensor off. However, when you turn on SENSI or the eyes, the MROF is set at 31. It would be easy for someone to turn the MROF with paint sensor off to 15 then right before they get on the field, turn the paint sensor back on and get 31 bps.

[Paintballjc]

Yes, rix, you can set the MROF with the paint sensor off. However, when you turn on SENSI or the eyes, the MROF is set at 31. It would be easy for someone to turn the MROF with paint sensor off to 15 then right before they get on the field, turn the paint sensor back on and get 31 bps.
Ya, but you can tell the difference between 15 and 31....

[jb12]

Yes, that is very true...it's very hard to hit 31 bps though. If you run a z-board egg, you can shoot 18. 18 and 15 don't look or sound to much different, so that would be a very big problem if there isn't a specific 15 bps angel board made. 'cuz the difference between 18 bps and 15 bps is enough to make a pretty big difference in shooting lanes.

[anjordan77]

yeah but enter the radars that measure your ROF

[rix123]

Yes, rix, you can set the MROF with the paint sensor off. However, when you turn on SENSI or the eyes, the MROF is set at 31. It would be easy for someone to turn the MROF with paint sensor off to 15 then right before they get on the field, turn the paint sensor back on and get 31 bps.

..jb you're absolutely correct that SENSI/Eye On "uncaps" the MROF...

But, and I'm at fault here, my original post was an allusion to finding a potential answer in the manual, i.e., Sensi off and MROF set to 15bps or less...

In reality, I don't believe it would be hard for WDP to create a s/w version that has a "CFOA" specific setting, just a matter of determining customer desire and possible impact on future sales.....

[jb12]

yeah but enter the radars that measure your ROF

Yes, however, those are pretty expensive and for every ref to have one and check every player every second of every game is just completely impractical. I just think it's a dumb rule, that will probably be given so much grief that it will disappear in a few years, except from maybe the NXL.

[az'rail]

but you must see why they made such a rule. yea it might sound dumb but it will lower the risk of an injury to a player. alot of these cheater chips running around not only ramp by lowering the debounce but they also raise the dwell effectively increasing the fps. being bunkered by such a marker will make the game less fun. the way is see it they should make turny boards for the loaders that can be lockable to 15bps via a special key. i better get off my soap box before i fall and bust my ass.

[wings of fury]

Im impartial on this but i can see the paint companies that sponsor the events being upset with this because they wont make as much money.

[drkanglr]

Not really true. If you decrease the amount of paint that is being thrown up off the break, which this will inarguably do, then more people will make their primary. More people in position = more people shooting a few pods instead of half a hopper on the way to the "off-the-break" dead box shuffle.

[outback]

A BPS Cap, I am not too concerned with, however if a cheater board modifies Velocity. Then I have a big concern. The 300 FPS, rule is a good medium, for trajectory as well as breakage on target. Also the Lenses in our Masks have been tested to survive a point blank 300 fps hit (as well as a factor of safey), they are rated for that 300 fps. I have had only one lens get cracked with a hit from about 15 feet away, most other lenses I have tossed due to scratches from the ball shards. Just my two bits.

[Hep]

This is stupid and I highly doubt it will occur.

[AngelFourKid]

A BPS Cap, I am not too concerned with, however if a cheater board modifies Velocity. Then I have a big concern. The 300 FPS, rule is a good medium, for trajectory as well as breakage on target. Also the Lenses in our Masks have been tested to survive a point blank 300 fps hit (as well as a factor of safey), they are rated for that 300 fps. I have had only one lens get cracked with a hit from about 15 feet away, most other lenses I have tossed due to scratches from the ball shards. Just my two bits.

My thoughts exactly man, beautiful
:clap: Thats always been my biggest concern, the velocity. Im not worried about speed ramping guns becuause I can shoot basically just as fast or close to it with my Angel legit. Like you said, the ramping velocity is the bigger picture. First off, it will make the game less fun and more painful just because the velocity is higher. But mainly, its things like our goggles, I dont want to get bunkered by a gun ramping velocity and have my mask damaged where I am at high risk of serious injury.

[Flynn]

that's the gayest thing ever, if they are gonna cap it at anything they should cap it at 20 or 25, 15 is just way to slow

[Raoul]

That's like no cap at all then...

[jb12]

:dito: I don't think it's cool to limit the BPS. However, I agree dwell ramp is very dangerous. I have seen and shot guns with dwell ramp (not my own). A friends timmy would chrono at 280 with one shot. But, when multiple shots were fired quickly, it would jump to 320. That is dangerous. BPS, oh well, I agree with Markus Nielsen "Give everyone full-auto guns at 35 BPS, and strap-on helmets and go at it," or something to that effect, you get the picture

[Racso]

i thought the highest ROF on a true semi (no bounce, no ramp) was 23, and that was just testing, not an actual in-game ROF. The most common (from what i've seen and read) is between 15 and 19. Thus the most someone is going to loose is 4 bps.

However, since a lot of them are using these ramping/bouncing/cheating guns and not actually truly pulling X bps, their skills at doing so will be deplorable compaired to those who do pull at high rates.

In short, the only ones being punished here are the ones who really pull over 15 bps.

[Crazy4Paintball1]

I think that this is both a good and bad idea. Personally I think they need to get a way to control the way people shoot and cheater boards, and if this is the way to do it then ok. However people get smarter as do electronics, etc... Someone will find a way to cheat and shoot faster than 15 bps thats just the nature of the sport now. I don't support cheating or the politics of this sport...but thats just the way things are right now.

What exactly is the CFOA? What events are they at and stuff? I was getting a predator board installed into my led but they are all coming with 15bps caps now because the CFOA said thats what they are doing...but if I play any NPPL event I want to be able to shoot faster than 15....

[Presto333]

i was thinking today, and instead of this y don't they just tell all the players, no cheater boards of any sort. And have a group of people, uniforms and all, constantly checking boards. If a player is found with one he is disqualified and cannot play the entire tourney. Not the whole team, just the player. I think ejecting the cheaters would be better than limiting everyone. Cause i know MOST of them have to be going 20+ since that is wut most people i talk to/have seen do and they don't even play pro.

[drkanglr]

I think that this is both a good and bad idea. Personally I think they need to get a way to control the way people shoot and cheater boards, and if this is the way to do it then ok. However people get smarter as do electronics, etc... Someone will find a way to cheat and shoot faster than 15 bps thats just the nature of the sport now. I don't support cheating or the politics of this sport...but thats just the way things are right now.

What exactly is the CFOA? What events are they at and stuff? I was getting a predator board installed into my led but they are all coming with 15bps caps now because the CFOA said thats what they are doing...but if I play any NPPL event I want to be able to shoot faster than 15....


The CFOA is the Carolina Field Owners Association. It's one of the largest and fastest growing leagues in the country. The average event is pulling over 100 teams and they have had to resort to playing Rookie games on Sat. w/ Nov/Am play on Sunday's so that everything can be finished on time. There have been quite a few Trauma players, Eric Deerman from Philly Americans and a few other pro players that have either made "appearences" at various tournies. Deerman actually played the entire season last year w/ his team. Josh Silverman of PB2X and Gino of NPBS are two of the major contributors/sponsors along w/ Larry Motes who started the league. There're some great photos and info on the web site www.thecfoa.com and there was even a DVD produced by DerDer called the CFOA Experience that has some awesome play on it. Check it out, it's growing every season. We play in N.C., S.C., Tennesse, and Georgia.

The idea behind limiting and having everyone get some sort of limiting software is the same idea as in CART racing and is to get everyone on a level playing field. It also serves to reduce the amount of abstract or differing interpretations that either penalize or support teams/individuals w/ illegal or boarderline software. If everyone has to have the same set-up, then anyone w/ out it is in violation. The idea is sound, but the application will be difficult. We'll have to wait and see.

[Crazy4Paintball1]

Thanks for the info drkanglr.

[Hathegkla]

I think that requireing new chips in everyones gun is gonna be too expencive and will probably never happen. the best way to deal with this problem is to ban force fed hoppers. if everybody used a revy; ramping and full auto wouldnt be as big a problem because anyone can keep up with a revy in semi anyway. it would actually make the sport cheaper...cept everyone would have to buy angels and timmys with break beam eyes...but serriously bannnig forcefed hoppers would be just as effective as a 15bps limit and wouldnt cost anybody any money becaue most of us have old revys anyway....but thats just my ¢2

[Talfuchre]

Fellas - the newer boards are reprogrammable for a reason.

Easy software flash and this is over with.

TF

[Major Morningwood]

I for one, have feelings both for and against this ramping problem. I have played against guys with shockers, timmys, and DM4's all with ramping boards. I have had a teammate lose an eye because his google was shot at over 350fps repeatedly due to dwell ramping. Face it, we are playing a sport that is supposed to be fun and safe. As long as we let cheaters fly 30bps at a new paintball players, we are going to give this sport a black eye. I mostly play woodsball and speedball every now and then. What is the sport in laying a paint stream off the break in hopes after you empty your hopper you might have gotten at least one player. We have been asking for this more and more as our markers get faster and more easily programmed. Look at airsoft, these guns are almost all fully auto, identical replica guns. States are banning these things everywhere. The next thing we know, immature kids will be getting paintball guns with ramping chips (probably from wally world) and laying waste to the neighborhood. When that happens, you can forget the CFOA, NXL, NPPL. The government is looking at anything to do away with our sport, and we have skeptics waiting for one major screwup at any moment. Accepting cheater boards, and allowing 35bps hoppers and guns is only adding to the chaos that has occurred in this sport. I agree with what one user mentioned above about using the VL Revvy. That was my thoughts entirely about the resolution to this problem. Instead of worrying about firing your trigger at mach 1, people will make their shots count, skills will get better, and safety will be much better. If not, oh well, see how fast you can pull a BE talon with a gravity fed hopper because that will be the closest to any gun any of us will get to use. Quit bi*ching about not allowing cheater boards, dwell cheats, advanced hoppers and start learning how to play paintball and use skills. Everyone will have more fun. Dang, you guys had to get me on my soapbox! :tongue2:

The Major has spoken.

[slinkyonrampage]

Ok well heres my thoughts, dwell ramping, ramping, bouncing, and cheater boards are wrong, and if a player is found shooting with 1, it should b taken out, and given to like some one official or sum1. All the places that make cheater boards should b like not allowed to make them. And the BPS cap rule should not b in effect. Because if no1 can have a cheater board or anything like that it is all skill pullin 20 bps if he can do it, and not because of cheating. If someone can do sumthing that he can do without cheating let him do it. As long as the FPS is below 300 everything should b fine. !5 bps is just way too low. I can hit 16 on a matrix without bouncing, cheating, or anthing. And im slow. I have friends who hit 18 and 19 on their matrixes without cheating in any way. So like seriously as long as it isnt sheating u can shooot as fast as u can pull the trigger. I am totally for getting rid of cheater boards and that stuff, but putting a 15 bps cap is just stupid. And if they have to hav e every1 get a chip to maek their gun that speed, they better pay for mine, because im not payin for it. Not just that, like halo's and other fast hoppers wouldnt b needed, companies might actually go out of bussiness, ppl would lose jobs. keep cheating off the field, but dont b stupid and ban 15 bps

[RaistlinsLegacy]

well as for little kids getting rampers, at the shop i work at a little kid bought a nerve... you can't really beat that a little kid, still blind shooting over his bunkers, with a bps ramp of 5-15 which he can hit when he fans the trigger.... makes reffing extremely difficult :p and they wont check you if they see a revy or reloader.... i have a backman who can easily do 18-19 legally left handed too haha and he doesnt seem to happy with the idea of trying to play Xball at 15 bps :p

[slinkyonrampage]

Yea BPS ramping, bouncing and suf like that isnt good. Like say u go 2 bunker sum1 and ur gun is bouncin. U gonna hit him like 10 or 20 times before ur gun stops shooting. Just get rid of the cheating, but dont limit the ppl who can actually pul past 15. the ppl who rnt cheating, but can pull fast, arent the ppl causing he problems

[Presto333]

i still say they should go wit my idea that if anyone is caught bouncing, ramping, using any kind of cheater board they r ejected from the tourney.

[slinkyonrampage]

i agree, but also they should confiscate the cheater board

[speedmarvelizeR]

dude, confiscating the cheater board is a bad idea i think, its yours, like Mr. Preston said, just disqualify the player. because if they confiscate your board, the how are u EVER gonna have fun in rec ball???

[speedmarvelizeR]

a stock fly board could be considered a cheating board, TR for example, would u like them confiscating ur stock angel board? i wouldnt.
:notsure:

[Furby]

I'll be publishing the 2005 CFOA rules tommorrow sometime...

EDIT:

And here they are: http://www.68caliber.com/news/tournament/story04669.php

[drkanglr]

Thanks Furby!

[Presto333]

well, as many of u have alrdy read from dale's story, the cfoa will infact be going to 15 bps cap. And i just have one thing to say: At least it has narrowed down my choices for which tourneys to compete in...

[drkanglr]

well, as many of u have alrdy read from dale's story, the cfoa will infact be going to 15 bps cap. And i just have one thing to say: At least it has narrowed down my choices for which tourneys to compete in...

Were you planning on making it from San Diego?

I do think there will be a bunch of teams moving to the EXP series instead, though. ( www.expseries.com )

[dynastySSS]

nppl.............

[Presto333]

Were you planning on making it from San Diego?


meh, prob not, but theres always the possibility. I'm going to tampa for IAPTE ( www.iapte.com ) so it's not like it was completely out of the question. But I doubt i'd ever play it in the future now that they have the cap.

[speedmarvelizeR]

ha, 15! ah!!! i can make my toung walk the trigger that fast!!!

[Furby]

Okay, some people are fans of this cap, and others are not. Speaking for myself only, I don't like the idea of being told how fast I can shoot. Yes, cheaters, bouncers, and rampers suck. However, what about us guys (granted, we're a minority) who can shoot fast normally, and don't need nor want electronic assistance to do so?

For the record, I've been goldwaved at 17 bps consitently, and burst to 23...this is on my Fly'd LCD. For grins and giggles I'll record myself during a game this weekend and have it goldwaved to get an honest ROF from it. Chris LaSoya is reputed to shoot 20bps consistently without assistance. I know several people who are faster on the trigger than I am, so while naturally fast shooters are a minority, there are enough of us to make this ruling an issue.

Word has it that manufacturers have 30 days to make their markers compliant with CFOA rules. Their first event is in 36 days, so when precisely does this time start counting down? From 30 days out on the first event, 30 days after their first event, etc?

Also, note that current generation Angels don't have a way to cap the MROF with the eyes on. Granted, you can just turn the eyes off and set that MROF to 15, but what's the point of owning a $1500 Fly if you're prevented from using its' eyes? So that leaves it up to WDP or the MT's to program a specific software for the CFOA, in order to be compliant and still be able to use the Angel Eyes. How likely do you think that will be?

I dunno about you guys, but IF by some chance I get the opportunity to play a CFOA, I'll borrow an LCD and save myself the heartache of putting my team at risk for penalties because my marker is more advanced than the rules...

[drkanglr]

Well, like someone else stated earlier, if you put an old revvy on there, you can leave the eyes on and still be limited by your hopper. No chops, still only 15 bps. By the way, anyone have an old revvy to sell or trade?

[Hathegkla]

^^^that was me! Yeah I think that’s what a lot of people will probably do, its simple and most people have em anyway, it doesn’t require any gun modification and you still have the benefit of using your eyes. What’s the max for a revy anyway 14-17? Old revys are pretty light and reliable as well so I don't see it as being a huge problem for people

[Raoul]

Has anybody heard from the PSP yet, or will they announce their new rules the day of their first event?