Poll for eyes on/off activation on Fly...

[Benfrain]

We love the new Fly Angel, it is an awesome piece of kit.

However, some of the users prefer the previous method of activating and de-activating the paint detection system (in this instance the Angel Eyes).

Some would therefore greatly appreciate one of the following options in a future version of the Fly software to accomodate their preferred Eye ON/OFF activation method...

This poll should hopefully demonstrate what the majority of Angel users who frequent the boards would like. Please vote if you would like your opinion considered, once the poll has been voted on by say 30 people we should be able to see if this actual only affects a small minority of users and therefore is not worth contacting WDP about...

How would you like the Eyes on/off controlled on your Fly?

a) using the buttons at the rear of the gripframe, as per earlier Angels (e.g. IR3, Speed, Angel 4).

b) by being able to hold in the trigger (for a user definable period of time) to turn the eyes both off AND back on.

c) be able to re-configure all the Angels buttons to decide which button does what. This could be either fully re-configurable or have 2-3 presets e.g.
Eye1 (NPPL legal - eyes off with 2 sec trigger pull)
Eye2 (Classic - as previous Angels, using grip frame buttons)
Eye3 (Tournie PLUS - as 'Eye1' but also able to turn eyes back on by holding in the trigger for 2 secs when in Eyes OFF mode).

d) I don't agree it would be any benefit to have any of the above options. I think the Eye off activation (just the activation, not the system!!) is better on this Angel than previous models and don't want it changed in any way.


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Please vote!
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For more arguments for and against, go here...

http://www.angel-owners.com/showthread.php?t=20367

[dynastySSS]

im sry but how do u do it right now...but if it were me i would like the middle button on the back of the grip frame, and hold the trigger down for 2 seconds and they are off...

[Benfrain]

At the minute, in mode 1 (the only tournie legal mode) to turn the eyes off you hold in the trigger for 2 seconds. When the eyes are off, to turn them back off you have to either turn the marker off and then back on with the power switch and then use a button at the back of the grip frame to go back to live or you have to hold the top button of the grip frame in until the marker goes 'safe' and then press the button again to make it 'live'

Click the thread link at the bottom of the original post for the various arguments for and against. No need to go through it all again in this thread ;)

[L1f3]

Would have to be on the back buttons :)

I have an awful habit of keeping the trigger pressed down when looking around the field??!! :notsure:

[matthepepe]

i like how it is now , but the idea of turning them back on teh same way would be great.

[fife]

I don't mean to strike any controversy, but why would you turn the eyes on and off during a game? I occasionally will turn eyes off, but never back on in the middle of a game (why would I do that :dunno: ) The idea behind using the trigger to deactive eyes was probably to give us a fast method for deactivation plus you don't have to take your own eyes off the field to look at buttons.

[Sparco]

I believe the issue at hand is not so much the ability to turn the eyes on & off during a game, rather it's the issue of how they're turned off. Several people apparently run with their hand holding the trigger down as not to discharge the marker during a run or dive. Chances are you'd end holding the trigger down for more than 2 seconds if you did this and thus turn your eye's off.

Thus the entire discussion is focused on determining another method in which to turn the eyes off during use, or enable a feature to turn them back on.

Correct (Benfrain)?

[Benfrain]

No controversy, just read the related thread as posted in the original post ;) That question has been posed and answered. Sparco has summed up the basics of the argument though. However to further my argument and answer your question as to why you might want to turn off and on in a game I'll describe an incident that happened to me at a recent tournament...

My marker stops firing in the middle of a break out, I de-activate the eyes because I think it is an eye issue. Problem remains however and I realise I haven't swiched my halo on (or it's gone off or whatever). I turn it on and I can fire again but my possible ROF is lower and there is a possibility I may chop. To get my eyes back on I have to switch (using the grip frame buttons at the rear I might add) from LIVE to SAFE and then back to LIVE again, OR turn the marker completely off at the back flick switch, back on and then go LIVE again...

Wouldn't it, in the least, make more sense to be able to just hold the trigger in for another 2 secs? Or just use the buttons at the back that I have to use to go live to safe anyway to turn the eyes on and off?

[SlasherXII]

When i'm playing I wouldn't want the eye system turning off on me. It would be great if they use the middle button to turn the eyes off & on like they did for the Sensi. If they could release the PDA software, that would solve that problem (hint, hint...) :smile:

[Benfrain]

The more I think about it the more I think option C would be the best bet (although I didn't vote that way initially!) as then you can have it the way it is if that's what you prefer or have it the old way if you would rather. Nobody looses out because all options are catered for :)

Let's get to 50 votes and then see how the land lies...

[fife]

No controversy, just read the related thread as posted in the original post ;) That question has been posed and answered. Sparco has summed up the basics of the argument though. However to further my argument and answer your question as to why you might want to turn off and on in a game I'll describe an incident that happened to me at a recent tournament...

My marker stops firing in the middle of a break out, I de-activate the eyes because I think it is an eye issue. Problem remains however and I realise I haven't swiched my halo on (or it's gone off or whatever). I turn it on and I can fire again but my possible ROF is lower and there is a possibility I may chop. To get my eyes back on I have to switch (using the grip frame buttons at the rear I might add) from LIVE to SAFE and then back to LIVE again, OR turn the marker completely off at the back flick switch, back on and then go LIVE again...

Wouldn't it, in the least, make more sense to be able to just hold the trigger in for another 2 secs? Or just use the buttons at the back that I have to use to go live to safe anyway to turn the eyes on and off?

If you are trying to solve a firing issue during a breakout, then you'll have plenty of time on the sidelines to figure it out and you won't need to worry about how to turn off the eyes. :blasting:

Man do I love guys who run with their trigger down, especially my teamates. Not only is it unsafe, but try to tell a ref that you got shot from your own teamate (on fields that use common color paint) and see if he'll leave you in?


"I believe the issue at hand is not so much the ability to turn the eyes on & off during a game, rather it's the issue of how they're turned off."

If it's only an issue of turning eyes off outside of a game, then it's not an issue. Who cares if you have to turn the marker off then on to reactivate eyes outside of a game. Also why point out that people run around with their triggers down, do they do that on the sidelines?

In my opinion, I like the trigger function instead of depressing a frame button. I also play with a Speed and when I have to turn sensi off (quite frequently) it's a pain because you have to take your eyes away from the game to locate the button. I do, however, think it would be nice if eyes were turned ON from the trigger.

[Benfrain]

If you are trying to solve a firing issue during a breakout, then you'll have plenty of time on the sidelines to figure it out and you won't need to worry about how to turn off the eyes. :blasting:

Man do I love guys who run with their trigger down, especially my teamates. Not only is it unsafe, but try to tell a ref that you got shot from your own teamate (on fields that use common color paint) and see if he'll leave you in?


"I believe the issue at hand is not so much the ability to turn the eyes on & off during a game, rather it's the issue of how they're turned off."

If it's only an issue of turning eyes off outside of a game, then it's not an issue. Who cares if you have to turn the marker off then on to reactivate eyes outside of a game. Also why point out that people run around with their triggers down, do they do that on the sidelines?

In my opinion, I like the trigger function instead of depressing a frame button. I also play with a Speed and when I have to turn sensi off (quite frequently) it's a pain because you have to take your eyes away from the game to locate the button. I do, however, think it would be nice if eyes were turned ON from the trigger.

Did you even read what I wrote?????

If your marker stops firing mid game do you just walk off the field or try to sort it mid game?? No, you try and sort it when you get to your primary so you can get some paint out at the bad guys.

And your point about running with the trigger held in is totally redundant. There is far less chance of a negligent discharge if the trigger is held in because you can't accidentally tap the trigger. That's the whole point of holding it in, which part of that don't you understand?

You've also totally misinterpreted what Sparco wrote too, try reading peoples comments first before typing away and objection. His point is that we ARE discussing how we turn the eyes ON and OFF during a game. HOW it is done, not when...

[fife]

Not here, we are all too happy at Angel Owners. Are we done now? :drink:

I guess where I am going is it's important to also know WHEN (during a game or off the field) this feature change is desired, as we have found out so far. Everyones game play is different, I don't run around holding my trigger but some do. Trigger selection off and on would best fit my needs, but not others. An independant button or shared button would be better for others. I personally think that using the trigger off the field is a pain because you have to discharge to turn the eyes off (if you're gassed), some field owners don't like when you do that in safe zones and it's not safe. However, owning both an A4 and Fly, I like the trigger during game play (it's quick and I don't have to let my own eyes leave the field).

This is why a poll is nice because we then can gather a majority and see how and why others feel.

[C.Carles-AOG]

No controversy, just read the related thread as posted in the original post ;) That question has been posed and answered. Sparco has summed up the basics of the argument though. However to further my argument and answer your question as to why you might want to turn off and on in a game I'll describe an incident that happened to me at a recent tournament...

My marker stops firing in the middle of a break out, I de-activate the eyes because I think it is an eye issue. Problem remains however and I realise I haven't swiched my halo on (or it's gone off or whatever). I turn it on and I can fire again but my possible ROF is lower and there is a possibility I may chop. To get my eyes back on I have to switch (using the grip frame buttons at the rear I might add) from LIVE to SAFE and then back to LIVE again, OR turn the marker completely off at the back flick switch, back on and then go LIVE again...

Wouldn't it, in the least, make more sense to be able to just hold the trigger in for another 2 secs? Or just use the buttons at the back that I have to use to go live to safe anyway to turn the eyes on and off?

Who has had the eyes malfunction? Who would really want to disable the eyes? I understand that you just want to have the ability to, not that you would really use it. Conversely I offer this: why program something that you're not going to use? Since to me it makes no sense to turn the feature off then I don't see why WDP should go through the trouble of making that available in various ways.
As you stated, you mis-diagnosed the issue. Perfectly acceptable, especially when you're on the adrenaline rush of a breakout! Perhaps we should all learn to truly trust the eyes system and when something goes wrong look elsewhere first. In your case it was the loader. I think that if we start disabling the eyes for whatever reason at all times we're just going to make matters worse.

[Sparco]

It's ironic, I was fooling around with a customer's Fly today at the shop and blammo... I was getting this horrible delay on each trigger pull. It was like a curse of the Intimidator delay mode on like 10ms! After checking the loader (and determining that it was on) I didn't know what else to do.

After turning the marker off (from LIVE) and then switching from SAFE -to- LIVE the problem went away. However, it's still unknown to me what happened... why it happened and will it ever happen again. The eyes, breech and eye passages are all spotless.

I believe the ability to bypass the eyes in game is critical, turning them back on after bypassing them... that apparently is still up for discussion. Perhaps an "on and go" option would help eliminate some of the issue and go back to the Speed design.

[Raoul]

I trust my eyes so much I don't even bring a swab/squeegie anymore!

[Benfrain]

Who has had the eyes malfunction? Who would really want to disable the eyes? I understand that you just want to have the ability to, not that you would really use it. Conversely I offer this: why program something that you're not going to use? Since to me it makes no sense to turn the feature off then I don't see why WDP should go through the trouble of making that available in various ways.
As you stated, you mis-diagnosed the issue. Perfectly acceptable, especially when you're on the adrenaline rush of a breakout! Perhaps we should all learn to truly trust the eyes system and when something goes wrong look elsewhere first. In your case it was the loader. I think that if we start disabling the eyes for whatever reason at all times we're just going to make matters worse.

C.Charles, my primary reason for wanting the PDS (eyes on the Fly) on/off system changed back to how it was on the IR3/Speed/A4 is because of how the Fly is programmed.

Because the trigger is held in to de-activate the eyes I have occasionaly de-activated the eyes during play because I (perhaps one of the few) always hold in the trigger when bumping bunkers to avoid a negligent discharge. Equally, when playing front I hold in the trigger from breakout to get a better grip on my marker as I sprint and dive into my primary.

I gave the example above as further evidence for my case of how the current eye off system is flawed. You can hold it in to turn the eyes off, but if the eye isn't the problem you are going to want to turn it back on - but the problem is you still have to mess with the back of the grip frame to do it (turn the eye back on), which is what the whole 'trigger off' method tries to negate in the first place.

A selectable 'NPPL' or 'Classic' mode would mean the trigger activation could stay for those that prefer it (and perhaps also incorporate an further trigger pull for 'eyes on') and those of us who don't play NPPL could use the gripframe button activation for PDS on/off like every other tournament marker uses I can think of.

FIFE - I only have love for you mate, no hard feelings, didn't mean it perhaps the way it seemed, I just wish you would have read what I wrote more thoroughly first... :)

[fife]

:scratchhe

[C]-[iLDe]

...I personally think that using the trigger off the field is a pain because you have to discharge to turn the eyes off (if you're gassed), some field owners don't like when you do that in safe zones and it's not safe...

Well, youre not supposed to shoot anywhere but on the field or at the chrono so using the trigger could still work. Good point though.

I am in favor of using the trigger to turn the eyes on and off - although id prefer a longer delay (5 or 7 secs. instead of 2, for example). Still, i dont see why there can't be some method of turning the eyes on and off with the gripframe buttons as well, to eliminate the need for a trigger pull.

[KEN CRANE]

C.Charles, my primary reason for wanting the PDS (eyes on the Fly) on/off system changed back to how it was on the IR3/Speed/A4 is because of how the Fly is programmed.

Because the trigger is held in to de-activate the eyes I have occasionaly de-activated the eyes during play because I (perhaps one of the few) always hold in the trigger when bumping bunkers to avoid a negligent discharge. Equally, when playing front I hold in the trigger from breakout to get a better grip on my marker as I sprint and dive into my primary.

I gave the example above as further evidence for my case of how the current eye off system is flawed. You can hold it in to turn the eyes off, but if the eye isn't the problem you are going to want to turn it back on - but the problem is you still have to mess with the back of the grip frame to do it (turn the eye back on), which is what the whole 'trigger off' method tries to negate in the first place.

A selectable 'NPPL' or 'Classic' mode would mean the trigger activation could stay for those that prefer it (and perhaps also incorporate an further trigger pull for 'eyes on') and those of us who don't play NPPL could use the gripframe button activation for PDS on/off like every other tournament marker uses I can think of.

FIFE - I only have love for you mate, no hard feelings, didn't mean it perhaps the way it seemed, I just wish you would have read what I wrote more thoroughly first... :)


tell ya what i have an idea.as benfrain has been a long standing member he deserves the answer he is seeking.ben,i will forward this to frazer/jr at the factory and see what type of response i recieve.ill post it as soon as i can.

[Benfrain]

Ken, you are a gentleman. Many thanks.

I would also like to re-iterate at this point I am in no way disatisfied with the Fly marker. I think it is the finest marker available at present (will be posting a review shortly too as I have noticed there is no 'full' review from any members yet on the Fly), I'm just interested in making it even better. :)

[Benfrain]

What word from the front Mr Crane?

[Emmit]

It's ironic, I was fooling around with a customer's Fly today at the shop and blammo... I was getting this horrible delay on each trigger pull. It was like a curse of the Intimidator delay mode on like 10ms! After checking the loader (and determining that it was on) I didn't know what else to do.

After turning the marker off (from LIVE) and then switching from SAFE -to- LIVE the problem went away. However, it's still unknown to me what happened... why it happened and will it ever happen again. The eyes, breech and eye passages are all spotless.

I believe the ability to bypass the eyes in game is critical, turning them back on after bypassing them... that apparently is still up for discussion. Perhaps an "on and go" option would help eliminate some of the issue and go back to the Speed design.
I'm gonna guess you might've accidentally hit the middle button on the grip frame....this seems to fool the eyes or something:dunno: just an idea

[akes]

I love the way it is now !!!!!!!!!!!

--------- Big Al

[KEN CRANE]

What word from the front Mr Crane?

there are some ideas here on the situation.tell you what,would a programable time delay lets say 2-4-6-8-10 second increments that you can set from a menu help?
no promises but is that an alternative? :hi: :hi: :hi:

[KEN CRANE]

Lets Start This Again As I Have Added Another Choice On The Poll.the Addition Would Add A Menu In The Display To Adjust The Time To Your Settings In Say 1-10 Second Increments

[Benfrain]

Personally, that wouldn't really be a benefit. I would still want it done by the gripframe buttons. I think a NPPL/Classic selectable option would be the best option...

[KEN CRANE]

Personally, that wouldn't really be a benefit. I would still want it done by the gripframe buttons. I think a NPPL/Classic selectable option would be the best option...

explain please :patriot:

[mattcfleming]

To me the time delay function seems like a really great idea. You can set it to what you see as comfortable for the way you shoot.

Ken.. better yet, how bout this, when you turn the eyes off, the grip frame vibrates (the fly does have the alarm right?) to let you know the eyes are off? While it might seem excessive, it would allow you to know the second you deactivated the eyes so you didn't step on the field with the eyes off, or some other similar situation etc...

-Matt

[Benfrain]

explain please :patriot:

Ken, it's all up above...

An option in the advanced menu that let's you choose 'NPPL' or 'Classic' for eye activation/deactivation.

A selectable 'NPPL' or 'Classic' mode would mean the trigger activation could stay for those that prefer it (and perhaps also incorporate an further trigger pull for 'eyes on') and those of us who don't play NPPL could use the gripframe button activation for PDS on/off like every other tournament marker uses I can think of.

Is that what you mean by explanation? Or do you mean more detail?

[JonnyQwest]

Personaly I like the way the Eyes turn OFF (a personaly adjustable delay would just be Even better) The only thing that I do not like is the way that they are turned back on......oh wait......that's right...... there is no way to turn them back on. Other than turning off your marker and turning it back on, then putting it back on fire or just going from live to safe and back to fire again. Both of which take a considerable amount of time.

Like I said, the way the eyes are turned off is good and if the delay was selectable I beleve everyone would like it (I don't know any baller that takes 8-10 seconds to move bunkers). The big and persistant problem, and I do mean problem, is the flys inability to turn the eyes ON. This is most important in the event of an accidental deactivation durring a game (which can and does happen). I beleave this needs to be addressed more than the way they are turned off. If you could turn the eyes back on quickly then an accidental deactivation would not be a real big problem.

This is only my opinion so please don't flame me.

laterz
Jonny

[Benfrain]

The rub with a longer delay however is this...

What happens if you do need to turn the Eyes off...and quickly. Say your eyes fail and then some fool comes to bunker you and you have to wait 10 seconds before your eye will turn off... needless to say I don't think that's the solution. OK, it's a one off incident, but certainly a possibility.

I don't have a problem with the amount of time, I just think the current method (trigger held in) is a flawed one in the grand scope of things. It at leasts the ability to hold it back in to re-activate IMHO.

A user selectable NPPL/Classic EyeQ activation option in the menu would mean everyone is happy though.

Ken, is a user selectable Eye off method definately a no no?

[akes]

2sec in a game seems like forever when your having problems

Benfrain: how about holding the Trigger from behind(forward) instead of holding it in??

The adjustment time would be OK, but Ken how about complete Interaction Software??

----------- Big Al

[Benfrain]

akes, holding the trigger from behind is a possibility but I still think that a selectable option in the advanced menu for NPPL (current Fly method) or Classic (old IR3/Speed/A4 method) of on/off would be best.

Until Ken or Frazer (or even grand wizard JR) says that it's impossible I am still voting for that option as that way everyone is taken care off and there are no compromises needed.

[Emmit]

I think what Ben is trying to get at is something similar to the "menu" selections. You can choose between either the "basic" or the "advanced" menu on the board. Is that what you're hinting at Ben?

[Benfrain]

Emmit, I'll try to clarify...

you know how you can choose your hopper speed (slw/med/fast and sfast)? Well I am suggesting just one more option is written into the Fly software. In the next version you could also choose Eye activation method. The options available would be 'NPPL' or 'Classic'.

If you set the option to 'Classic' it would behave just like the IR3, Speed or A4, by the gripframe buttons at the rear de-activating and re-activating the paint detection system.

If you set the option to 'NPPL' it would behave as it does at the minute by holding in the trigger to de-activate the paint detection system.

With this option added there is no need for longer delays, or causing problems for the users that prefer the trigger hold method of deactivation but at the same time it makes happy bunnies of myself and other who prefer the 'old' method.

That make any more sense?

[Emmit]

Ben....I know exactly what you want....I think you're trying to make it too complicated by typing a novel each time. You want a new selection added into the menu to determine what turns the eyes on/off....I understand that...I've understood that from the get go (don't necessarily agree or care, but still understood it)....I think you're confusing the masses man;)

[Benfrain]

Emmit, hold up, last post you were telling me I was 'hinting' at something so I tried to clarify ;)

OK, here's the short answer just for you Emmit... yes :)

[JonnyQwest]

I realy like that "NPPL/Classic" Idea. I gives the most options to the most amount of playing styles.

To all the MT's:

If this software MOD is even possible, would a "downloadable PDA" MOD be able to update our current 3.0 and 3.2 software to include this "new" option, or would we need to send our board in to an MT center to have it "up graded" (just a hypothetical question)?


thanks

[mpire123]

Seeing as how there isn't even any PDA programs to change the settings, I doubt that they would release a flash firmware updater any time soon. I would love for them to prove me wrong though. :biggthump

[JonnyQwest]

Very true and well said, I was just asking if, in the event this change recomendation got somewhere (WDP), would it be POSSIBLE for individual Angel owners to update there own markers. I do not even know if they have that capability. (that is also why I said "hypotheticly"). It would be great, would it not?

[Benfrain]

Ken, having had the revised poll done now, what are your thoughts? Is there any possibility of gettiing a 'NPPL/Classic' selctor built into the menu?

[Benfrain]

Ken? Any word from mission control? :)

[Jouster]

Very true and well said, I was just asking if, in the event this change recomendation got somewhere (WDP), would it be POSSIBLE for individual Angel owners to update there own markers. I do not even know if they have that capability. (that is also why I said "hypotheticly"). It would be great, would it not?
Yes, the markers have the built-in capability to be flashed over the iR port.

Jouster

[Benfrain]

Any update on this MT's?

[JonnyQwest]

I don't think anyone's home

JK ;)

[Benfrain]

Just had a mail back from Frazer @ WDP, they have no plans to change the way the eyes are de-activated :(

Looks like we are just going to have to get used to it...

[JonnyQwest]

I al ready am