Ergonomics and Mechanical Accuracy

[ezrunner]

All things being equal, why are some guns easier to shoot more accurately than others?

The sponsors and other techs that frequent this board know that we can tune angels to shoot very very well. The off center ram of the Angel and the Viking series of guns makes for a unique feel.

The bolt length and breech size of a paintball gun also contribute to the mechanical accuracy of the marker. This is how close each action is to the rest of them. So does the bolt behave the same way for each shot? In a properly setup marker yes, in an improperly done one no.

Comments, elaborations?

[Vantage_TeS]

It has alot to do with, like you said, the ergonomics. If the gun is built so you can hold it tight, and have a steady shooting platform, your shots are going to be much more accurate than a gun you have to hold awkwardly or away from you (less steady).

[ezrunner]

It really bugs me when people say that gun A or gun B is more accurate than my gun. The reality is that my gun may be easier to shoot faster while theirs is easier to shoot accurately. It still comes down to knowing your equipment and developing technique.

-rob

[Jouster]

Kick, I've found, is also a large factor in perceived accuracy, as is a good sight-line down the side of the gun.

Jouster

[Clowndog]

The angle of the grip is important in the "pointability", Try this , take aim at something sixty feet away, close your eyes, DONT MOVE, Then open them and take an honest assesment of where that marker is now pointing. Half the time I bet its not pointing where you aimed it. That is the "ergonomic" aiming point of the marker. The perceived accuracy is how close the paintball trajectory follows that sighted "line" to opponenets pack, foot, or errant loader. Sometimes switching from one marker to another will "exagerate" That perceived accuracy is not what you are used to so you say "that markers not as accurate as MY marker" Its just a matter of human perception and training,, Shoot that marker,, A LOT,,, learn where it goes and get it dialled,, Your ergonomic accuracy will soon shift to match the perceived accuracy.

[t,B.R.]

Ladies....Ladies...ladies.....

What all of you just said, just further implies that some guns are easier to shoot ...Faster / More Accurately than others.

I Love Angels...but ...the fact that it has an off center ram makes it more unusual to get use to than other guns that have a center line recoil.
Because we/ the user has to learn to compensate for the off center recoil.

Timmy's are IMO not very well manufactured guns....especially for what they are asking retail price for.

But ...the fact is ...they like DM4's are ridiculously easy to shoot very fast and consistently ....yes it is due to Trigger bounce and you can say what you want about cheating.
It's a FACT....any monkey can pull 18 BPS on a TIMMY/DM4.

Angels are getting there ...but you know what.
Any gun that the common monkey can pickup and shoot accurately even by perception is a better gun by design.

All of you have backed that up.....

We just like angels......they are not the best /most accurate/ easiest to pick up and shoot guns....PERIOD!!!

I still want my A Force FLY!#!@#!!

t,B.R.

[t,B.R.]

Also, Training to get used to a gun's flaws/ percieved flaws is not a solution.

Any Freshman design major can tell you that.
If it is not user friendly it is a design flaw......PERIOD!@#!

[Jim@ImpactPaintball]

the off center ram dosent prevent me from hitting my target, my gun dosent have any recoil. so i dont know what your point is there. i think if timmys didnt have d-bounce they wouldnt be popular at all. i dont think they are very ergo, thats just my opinion. The lower the pressure, the more gas used per shot, is a major factor in the guns accuracy. i dont really see having to get used to a gun to shoot it straight, i dont get that either. oh well.

[Adam_Angel_Guy]

shoot what you want. whats best for some one else may not be the best for you. so what if your gun isnt the "best" if you can hit what your aiming at thats all that matters. who cares what otehrs think of it.

[Frank_McCrank]

the angel doesnt shoot more accurate in 1 shot than a spyder does. that i have tested with my angel 4 and my spyder. but the angel 4 shoots more accurate at higher rates of fire because of less kick... less kick its easier to hold it steady increasing accuracy. if i my spyder would have as little kick as my angel 4 it would probably shoot as accurate at higher rates of fire.

[xXblinkXegoXx]

this is my first post. :dil:

well, i think that it does matter to get used to a gun to increase accuracy. You begin to have a feel for that gun, and you know its capabilities. Consistency = accuracy, and low recoil is imo the most important factor in achieving accuracy. imagine a gun without ANY recoil whatsoever. that gun would be extremely accurate, because it doesnt move off target at all. the paintballs would land in virtualy the exact same spot, depending on how well the paintballs were made and the weather conditions that day (wind). also, the more low pressure the gun, the less recoil it has, because you have less force moving the bolt, so you would have less force when the bolt returns, not moving the gun upward as much(less recoil). you would be able to handle less force thrusting the bolt back into position better than about 4 or 5 times this force(a high pressure gun). this i belive is a pretty small factor because if you have alight delron bolt, you wont have that much force no matter what the pressure. which brings me to my next factor, which is weight. if the bolt and moving parts in the gun are lighter, the gun will have less momentum to control, once again giving you more accuracy. thats why imo, guns like the 2003 shocker, most angels are extremely accurate.

[ricecrispi]

Feel of the gun is very important. If you have NO confidence in your gun you have no confidence itself. BOTTOMLINE. In the end its all about the person using it.

As for Frank McCrank. You are right. Angels are not accurate 1 shot guns or even 3 bps. ALL my pump will out shoot an angel at 1 bps but it isn't designed for that. After 10+ BPs is doesn't matter anymore. In the single second THAT 10 bps can hit that same spot that spyder did in 1 bps and the chance are even greater when you get into 20+ bps. Most guns are evenly match at that point. Yes there are pro teams using spyders and they'll admit they can't long ball because the guns dont shoot well from 125 feet but that doesn't matter at 50 ft or 5 ft. They don't care what causes it as long as they know they can't long ball they go for fast pace game.
Whatever fits your style.

But there are more variables then you realize when doing the type of test like Frank did its not valid and reliable. Like user error and tester error.

[127.0.0.1]

Actually it's also how the user shoots. Some people jerks their hand while shooting, some don't.

[ricecrispi]

In the end its all about the person using it. user error

[TuRbO]

just go shoot. lol learn your gun END OF DISCUSSION

[PakmanRevd]

^^what he said^^

[Talon]

Agreed. No marker makes it more accurate than another. There are too many factors effecting ball on ball accuracy, most of which don't even have to do with the marker itself. Factors such as paintball shape, paintball weight, weather, temperature, etc. Keep in mind we are shooting very light spheres, which are honestly not the most aerodynamic shape and because of that, and their weight, they lose accuracy and velocity quite quickly. Feel of a marker, mainly how comfortable you are handling, shooting, moving, etc. as well as the weight balance of the marker, it's recoil, and your confidence in the markers ability to do what you want it to do all contribute to perceived accuracy and shootability (if that's even a word).

Bottom line, find what works for you, not what works for everybody else. Learn your equipment and how it reacts to certain conditions. Drill until you are blue in the face, and then drill some more, and you will be as accurate or more so than anybody else who dares to question the accuracy of your marker. But keep in mind, that the markers perceived accuracy has nothing to do with it at this point, it is a matter of user accuracy and their ability to adapt themselves and their marker to any situation.

Sounds like a bad cliche, but you need to become one with your marker. Make it an extension of yourself that you don't need to worry about, think about, or stress about...and just let it rip fools up.

[cfl Robert]

Agreed

[Leo Robinson]

Thing may have changed a lot in the couple years since I played, but my low pressure bob long was a lot more accurate than my old 99 angel. Keep in mind this comparison was done in 1999. Im sure things have changed a lot since then, same barrels same paint.

[Jouster]

Thing may have changed a lot in the couple years since I played, but my low pressure bob long was a lot more accurate than my old 99 angel. Keep in mind this comparison was done in 1999. Im sure things have changed a lot since then, same barrels same paint.
As we've pointed out throughout this thread, that really doesn't prove anything. Given those same two guns, it's quite possible that I would have been more accurate with the Angel, since they're what I use on a regular basis and they're what I have grown accustomed to aiming with. Alternately, your Angel may have been your old gun, and the Bob Long the new, so your Angel needed a little service to restore her consistency over the chrono.

Jouster

[Leo Robinson]

As we've pointed out throughout this thread, that really doesn't prove anything. Given those same two guns, it's quite possible that I would have been more accurate with the Angel, since they're what I use on a regular basis and they're what I have grown accustomed to aiming with. Alternately, your Angel may have been your old gun, and the Bob Long the new, so your Angel needed a little service to restore her consistency over the chrono.

Jouster

Im not interested in having an angel VS cocker debate. Both the angel and cocker were in tune using the same paint and barrel size and type. Shot for shot the cocker just shot flatter and straighter.

I used to play with bad company's amateur team at that time, not that it has any meaning. The point is, i was/am not some paintball gimp with a couple guns and no clue what to do with them. I love my angel, my bob long along with the brand new force fly I just bought. Again maybe the newer angels shoot a lot better than the old ones.

As i stated in my first post. However at that time my cocker shot better and im sure just like the angels. The cockers have gotten better since 1999.

[Jouster]

Im not interested in having an angel VS cocker debate. Both the angel and cocker were in tune using the same paint and barrel size and type. Shot for shot the cocker just shot flatter and straighter.
I must respectfully disagree. An optimal Angel versus an optimal gun of any other type will shoot just as with just as much straightness/flatness/accuracy.

What do I mean by "optimal"? For instance, keep in mind that that older, HP Angel may have wanted a different barrel than the LP cocker in order to achieve the same accuracy; as a specific example, a high pressure gun generally wants a shorter barrel.

But, by all means, since you're in MD, head on down my way sometime and we'll do some empirical testing. :smile:

Jouster

[KEN CRANE]

Feel of the gun is very important. If you have NO confidence in your gun you have no confidence itself. BOTTOMLINE. In the end its all about the person using it.

As for Frank McCrank. You are right. Angels are not accurate 1 shot guns or even 3 bps. ALL my pump will out shoot an angel at 1 bps but it isn't designed for that. After 10+ BPs is doesn't matter anymore. In the single second THAT 10 bps can hit that same spot that spyder did in 1 bps and the chance are even greater when you get into 20+ bps. Most guns are evenly match at that point. Yes there are pro teams using spyders and they'll admit they can't long ball because the guns dont shoot well from 125 feet but that doesn't matter at 50 ft or 5 ft. They don't care what causes it as long as they know they can't long ball they go for fast pace game.
Whatever fits your style.

But there are more variables then you realize when doing the type of test like Frank did its not valid and reliable. Like user error and tester error.


whoo!!! somone actualy hit the nail on the head and i will comment. read this post until you understand it. for every action there is an equal reaction. most of all inconsistancy issues are from the "equal reaction" part of this equation.yes a cocker will shoot flatter as well as the pump gun. why you ask? becuse the equal reaction part is the barrel constantly trying to rise as the rate of fire gets faster.a cocker cannot even get close to the rof of even an led (ok thats my feeling). so when your blasting 22 bps on a speed,fly or whatever dont evpect it to be as accurate as a pump or cocker. you say lower the dwell and reduce the kick ? nope becuse all your doing is removing the mechanical bounce .you still have the other. defy physics and you can get it flatter.

[little_miss_trouble]

I agree with Kenny I may not know much about guns but physics i tend to understand and i love watching this back and forth of the gun vs gun because i could care less i think they are all cool (mostly)

[jesus]

My advice: shoot lots of things
I have shot many different weapons/markers
speargun, bows, shotguns, rifles, paintball markers,

it is amazing what you can hit with a rifle, any "monkey" can't do it but with practice you can control it very well. My point is that getting used to a marker or any weapon helps. Good guns don't have recoil and don't need getting used to. So I see both points. The off center ram doesn't make any more difference than a ram below it would. Think about it one below it may cause you to tilt up and shoot over your target and the angel's ram may cause you to shoot up and left. But the pressures are so low tinkerbell could shoot it without much difficulty. As long as the action is the same every time it is accurate. (even shockers, which moves everything in one line like a tippmann will have a distortion because of the inertia from the mechanism moving forward and back, it will rock on your hand but the pressure is low enough that tinkerbell can shoot it) The only problem is it may not line up with your line of sight. My angel does. I never aim anyways. I can't speak for others but I can look and soemthing with a weapon at my hip and shoot it. Its hand eye coordination like that that comes from getting used to a gun. If your wrist is as strong as a pile of green beans and you have no hand eye coordination and you can't take a few minutes to get used to your marker you can always create accuracy by volume. An angel is best for this, unless you want a bouncy POS then try www.boblonglovesmen.com

[BonzaiFNG]

all i can say is give me a gun and ill try to mow fools lol i just traded my nme for a speed 05 there was nothing wrong with it and shot great but i just like the feel of the angels way more i believe the newer angels are the most comfy guns ever lol oooooo ya

[Bigal1]

so Ken, was that Newton who said that or was it Ken Crane who first said, for every action, there is an opposite and equal reaction?