I don't think I will be buying a Fly because of the Opto trigger.

[Talfuchre]

For that matter I will probably selling my speed. I have played with the trigger for a long while and simply have disdain for it.

Why am I posting here you ask?

Because I think the Fly is going to spark another (three and counting Speed, A4 and now Fly) round of "My eyes are not reading a ball and my marker either won't let me shoot fast or is "pausing""

This can be lead (as Owen, Frazier and Ken have said and now are ALL blue in the face) to the operator not using the trigger correctly. 1) Either setting it too short or 2) Drumming it so fast it cannot re-set between shots.

The truth of the matter here is that the opto trigger needs to be set TOO LONG for it to work properly in comparison to other switch style markers (such as... well... every other marker on the planet).

I fault WDP for this. In thier quest to be different and innovative at times I think they sacrifice servicibility for difference.

This has been seen now in the full circle of the Cops. Cops to Sensi... now back to an eye system that every one has used for a long time. The truth was that Sensi did not offer anything new and took away in some areas (one speck of dirt disabled it and Halo's eat them).

This was also seen in the 'Cutlas" grip of the Ir3 that was cool only for Chris Lasoya and Marcus Neilson because they were getting them free... then they milled them off and we are back to normal.

The truth of the matter is that the Opto trigger is like 'New Coke" and is a mistake that can be fixed by simply putting a simple damned click switch back in you marker, saving us money, time, and trigger issues and admit you made a mistake.

I think the Fly and this board is going to be host to about 8 billion posts on pausing, missing, and other trigger related issues.

TF

[BuNkErEd]

what gun are you looking at now...

[Sparco]

This is unfortunate... it really is.

First off I'll agree with you. I remember the first time I picked my brand new Impact IR3 with the new 'opto-board' and tried to shoot the marker. It was the worst trigger pull, EVER. It had zero play in the pull and it felt like I was pulling the trigger against sandpaper, not a switch.

I spent about 2 hours trying different configurations, different pivot points, etc. After lightly greasing the switch and bending it... the marker smoked.

Both my A4 & FLY have been "stupid fast" out of the box. Minimal trigger adjustments, minimal effort in shooting. I believe that much of the problem with triggers is that people don't adjust the trigger appropriately...

Trigger Pull... Trigger Return... TOE... TR

That's honestly the best and only way to adjust it to ensure you can get it as short as possible, no bounce and no filterd pulls. You then need to proceed to lock it down or else the TOE will move over time. I'm not going to lecture on trigger adjustment though, TF, I know you know how it works.

I also agree with you about innovation. I honestly don't believe the consumer marker was ready for SENSI. After listening to JR/Frazer explain the concept of the design this past weekend I do believe that is in part better than an eye system. The initial pass on the COPS was a bit rough, the COPS 2 upgrade was a complete overhaul of the logic and noticable difference in detection. SENSI has improved on that even greater, effectively.

The problem is, people have had problems and those problems explode into people then surfacing their problems. The fact of the matter is, you couldn't make my SENSI fail (and chop) on my A4 if you tried to fool it. But the "HK" army would have you believe differently (I use this term loosely, not directed at HK directly or anyone).

Honestly, the end all solution probably doesn't exist in paintball marker technology. You're always going to run a risk of breaking paint in a marker, some way or another.

As for the trigger, I think if you work with the switch a bit (give it some attention) and set the wheels appropriately it'll mow. Hell... TF... if you do get a Fly and you're displeased with the trigger or any potential delay then you can send your marker to my shop and I'll ensure it functions properly and ship it back to you on my dime!

But I really think you're cheating yourself if you just bypass the FLY.

[BuNkErEd]

:dito:

[KEN CRANE]

jason thats a no no

[Jouster]

I see your argument, but strongly disagree.

To convince you otherwise, though, the easiest way is to urge you to find a friend with a newer Angel who loves it. Ask them to let you use their gun for a day in return for a half-case of paint or something. When you've felt what a properly-adjusted Opto trigger can do, you'll never go back to those microswitch triggers. I mean, if nothing else, microswitches ensure that the highest force delta over the entire trigger pull is at the moment of activation, exactly where you don't want variance!

Jouster

[Emmit]

He's shot my 4 before, just not for extended periods of time...his Speed went to Ken to solve the problems with the "pause" he had. His Speed works, I know this, he's just not apparently as happy with it as I thought a month or so ago.

[Talfuchre]

Sparco:

Thanks for the offer... I may have to keep this in mind.. also thanks for the advice. I means a lot.

Emmit (and others):

I have adjusted and adjusted this trigger and I think it is the trap door in the opto spring that makes it SO long.

I am not a big fan of the Sensi system but it is not bad.

The two together frustrated me... and then to hear the same complaints about speed and skipping come from A4 Fly users tells me this is a problem inherent in the Opto board system.

Now I want to make sure I am clear. This may be the most safe system when inactiviating bounce I have seen. I think Timmy triggers are so easy to rip on because they bounce so much. I know with my Speed that if it shoots I pulled the trigger... not the board.

I know I may be laughed out of here but... I am currently looking at an E-bladed cocker of some sort. I like the Orracle and the Karnivore is what Smoke is using currently and I have heard nothing but good things out of it.

It is simple, runs at a low pressure (low enough) and the trigger is snappy and fully adjustable (trigger points and maget-ification). I like Bud's markers for thier simplicity and the fact that I can fix anything on them with some allen wrenches.

I am NOT an Angel hater and have been a LONG LONG time angel supporter. I just think I am looking for somthing the Sensi System and Opto trigger system cannot give me.

TF

[BuNkErEd]

Sparco:

Thanks for the offer... I may have to keep this in mind.. also thanks for the advice. I means a lot.

Emmit (and others):

I have adjusted and adjusted this trigger and I think it is the trap door in the opto spring that makes it SO long.

I am not a big fan of the Sensi system but it is not bad.

The two together frustrated me... and then to hear the same complaints about speed and skipping come from A4 Fly users tells me this is a problem inherent in the Opto board system.

Now I want to make sure I am clear. This may be the most safe system when inactiviating bounce I have seen. I think Timmy triggers are so easy to rip on because they bounce so much. I know with my Speed that if it shoots I pulled the trigger... not the board.

I know I may be laughed out of here but... I am currently looking at an E-bladed cocker of some sort. I like the Orracle and the Karnivore is what Smoke is using currently and I have heard nothing but good things out of it.

It is simple, runs at a low pressure (low enough) and the trigger is snappy and fully adjustable (trigger points and maget-ification). I like Bud's markers for thier simplicity and the fact that I can fix anything on them with some allen wrenches.

I am NOT an Angel hater and have been a LONG LONG time angel supporter. I just think I am looking for somthing the Sensi System and Opto trigger system cannot give me.

TF
my dad has a karni... its just like any other ebladed cocker out there IMO, just lighter and better milled. also it has MAD kick compared to a properly setup angel. and you like cockers for their simplicity??? a gun cant get much simpler than an angel.

[Foosheezee]

yes, becuase cockers are simple guns......right....especially with e-blades.....

Get a different board (wait till someone is selling thier speed, then swap boards) and you will proalby be able to get a lighter trigger pull which will be hella fast.

[russ]

you do know that electronic cockers have an opto trigger too

[Talfuchre]

Really russ? I was sure that was a mouse click thing? Then why can it be set SO short in comparison to the Speed, A4 type?

TF

[SkeL]

IT's very similar to the opto used in angels, except the "trap door" is built into the trigger, like a long piece of metal portruding back into the board.

I am not a very big fan of the opto, as I have shown before. Towards the end of last year, I finally got my speed where I wanted it. IF you have put the A4 fly out of your options, I suggest going to a DM4. Cockers have been nothing but a pain in the butt in my experience. Keep it simple.

[russ]

just a matter of set up (I know sorry you heard it before)
PM me if you need detail. hate to post it all again

[cveale]

The e-Blades use a magnetic trigger as well. That's why they feel so different.

[SkeL]

Magnet's aren't always a good thing....

[Talfuchre]

Okay... I hear the set up thing all the time and here is my issue:

1) I am NOT an idiot. I have owned Angels for the last 5 years and I know how to work on them.

2) I DID work on this trigger extensively.

3) THEN I sent it to Ken who tweaked and and changed the leaf spring.

4) I have shot Emmitt's and it feels EXACTLY the same to me.

This trigger is LONG at its BEST. How you all get them to flat rip is beyond my comprehension (or perhaps my fingers comprehension).

I have sent this marker and its settings have not been changed by a master tech. In my opinion (and I have ruled nothing out) I don't fit the opto trigger.

I should not have to tweak springs that are anot meant to be tweaked, I should not have even had to sent this marker away to get the setting I have (granted there was more invloved there) but still...

You know where I see A4's and Speeds rip... on demo video's and when certain people completely void their warranty by messing with thier trigger (ie Was boards and the like). Everyone I have seen in real life has a longer pull than I want and is not all that speedy.

Now, I am not a big ROF freak. But when I see Owen dump a hopper in like 4 seconds.. I wonder what the HELL I and every other Speed and A4 is doing wrong.

Furthermore I wonder why I bought the wonderful and vernerable Sensi system to have it replaced by the Eyez system and watch my MSRP take a madd dump.

TF

[KEN CRANE]

i beleive that russ or myself have now done enough mods to add the feel of a switch without a switch.if you get some free time give me a buzz.the number is on my site

[Talfuchre]

Thanks Ken. I will call next week and see what we can do. I hope to save the feel because I do LOVE my Angel. (LOVES my angel). I just want it to love me back. :cheers:

TF

[mamba_juice]

a little OT, but i think im going to try to eblade an impulse.....or at least try


but anyways, i myself do prefer the microswitch feel...but i havent shot one of the new fly's...i havent shot any opto board gun with a magnetic trigger...maybe thatss why im so happy with mine. i would recommend you try it, you may be suprised by how well it feels.

[wiCKedBURN49]

from what everyone said about the e blade....yes it has the opto trigger, also the magnets on it are very good, however my trigger pull on my e blade is so short that the magnets dont "click" anymore (basically they dont do anything now) but either way cockers are not "simple" at all, i personally would stick with your angel, dont get me wrong i love my cocker but i would still take an angel over it any day....its just takes some time to get any new trigger broken in.

[Talfuchre]

Perhaps true. I am going to give the trigger a good bit of effort to learn and if after say 2 months I still can't get it (and I have been trying) I may look elsewhere...

But I may also send it off to have the eyez put on. We will see what that de-bounce and new board can do for me.

TF

[russ]

Well we should be releasing a magnetic trigger upgrade soon.
You could have them both done on your gun at the same time

[Emmit]

TF wait at least a couple of weeks until you have the chance to see/shoot my 4. I hope that you'll be as impressed with it as I think I'll be.

[I.R.Three]

I aint no Angel expert. But from what I have read, some of the complaints here are about the spring??? I have heard of people taking the spring out completely.. I had it done to my old mem 5 IR3 w/opto trigger and it was sweet.

I hope I am on the same subject as you guys??

[Emmit]

three...I believe you're reffering to the return spring...on the 4's and I believe on the Speeds as well WDP completely removed that spring and the only thing returning the trigger was the leaf spring attached to the board. My IR3 was a lot stiffer (even at 80k) than my 4 ever was...don't know why tho.:dunno:

[acsik]

Ummm

There are after market mods like the predator that are not wdp approved and use a micrswitch.

On my fly a4 18bps is almost effortless on tr5 or tr6 :)

Cya

[cveale]

Blech!

I just shot a Karnivore at the field and didn't perform anything like my A4. It was much slower (granted it was still stock and un-modified) and it kicked like a mule compared to my Angel. I let the owner shoot my A4 and he had a shocked look on his face after firing the first ball. It's a COMPLETELY different feel. I actually own a cocker and think that my older non-bladed one is much smoother firing than the newer, lighter, and faster cockers. Basically, the cocker was a good gun when it was a manual and a more "solid" body. They are trying to make it compete speed wise with guns that have a MUCH better design to achieve faster fire rates and they are losing what makes the cockers such a good gun to begin with.

[solid snake]

i am not too sure about this but i thing TAG (theangelguy.com) can put a microswitch in your gun. check it out

[BuNkErEd]

way to bring up a super old thread... :pat:

[Sparco]

i am not too sure about this but i thing TAG (theangelguy.com) can put a microswitch in your gun. check it out

Baaaaaaaaaaa :pissed: