View Full Version : Question for Ken/tech about Angel Eyes info in manual
Benfrain
03-13-2004, 06:36 AM
Have asked Frazer this question but I didn't think till I sent it that he may be going over to Huntington.
Therefore I will also ask here...
Having had a read through of the Angel Fly manual one thing worried me slightly...
The beginning of section 8 details the firing modes and mode 1 describes the Angel eyes firing mode. However, it says that 'to switch the Angel Eyes OFF the trigger must be held down for 2 seconds'.
Does this mean that in a game situation should you hold in the trigger for 2 seconds it will turn the eyes off? I hope not as I always hold the trigger in when I'm not firing and also when waiting for the 10 seconds call.
I can see that causing me some major headaches, or have I just got it wrong?
Thanks in advance - Ben
that does seem bad...maybe they meant holding it down during safe mode though? think about it...i dont think they can do that while in game cause alot of people would have trouble like you...im just guessing though..
Benfrain
03-14-2004, 06:09 AM
Anyone know for sure? I'm keeping my fingers crossed that it is some sort of mistake in the manual!!
tok3n
03-14-2004, 05:04 PM
It is mentioned multiple times in the manual so I don't think it is a typo. But why not use the old way of turning off and on the sensi for the eyes. Instead holding down the trigger. Plus to turn it back on you have to either turn off the marker or go to safe mode and back.
Benfrain
03-14-2004, 06:51 PM
Yes, I can't see any benefit of having the eye off activated by holding in the trigger - unless I am missing something really obvious it seems a crazy decision, especially with the usual PDS on/off at the rear of the grip frame having worked fine from IR3 onwards??
ricecrispi
03-14-2004, 07:48 PM
Should be like 5-10 secs. 2 secs is kinda short.
Benfrain??
Where`d ya see the Manual??
Emmit
03-14-2004, 08:18 PM
the manual is available at the WDP site for the Fly
firemedic30
03-14-2004, 08:45 PM
Where is the manual. I can't access it.
thog94
03-14-2004, 08:54 PM
I think that Benfrain had already posted it, but here it is again:
http://www.wdp.tv/manuals/ANGEL_FLY_Manual_WEB.pdf
Found it with the "Fly Info" main Page, on the Lower Left of Page..
It`s not Listed in the Manual Section Yet
---------- Big Al
tok3n
03-14-2004, 09:26 PM
I hope they change that in the software soon. Not sure what the benefits are for making the eye switch off by holding the trigger for 2 secs. I can see how it could be bad in a game if you held down the trigger, turned off the eye, and started chopping.
RonnyMcDYO
03-15-2004, 01:37 AM
Its hard to believe that WDP would make their gun do that, but it does say that in modes 2 and 5 and demo that you cant turn off angel eyes so that is a saving grace I guess.
tok3n
03-15-2004, 01:42 AM
But I think that mode 1 is were most people will keep their marker at.
Benfrain
03-15-2004, 05:13 AM
Just had a response back from Frazer, the manual is correct, hold the trigger down for 2 seconds and the eye will switch off :(
Modes 2 + 5 can't be used in tournaments so we will be stuck with eyes going on and off all the way through games!
Just had a response back from Frazer, the manual is correct, hold the trigger down for 2 seconds and the eye will switch off :(
Modes 2 + 5 can't be used in tournaments so we will be stuck with eyes going on and off all the way through games!
What? They made it so that even when the marker is Live the you can turn off the eyes by holding the trigger for 2 seconds? I'm sorry, but I dont think R&D did their job properly there...
It wouldn't be a problem for me, but I can imagine there are more people that hold the trigger right before the break.
Benfrain
03-15-2004, 05:28 AM
Correct. But maybe it's just me, when ever I am bumping up bunkers or waiting for game on I always hold my trigger in so I don't accidentally fire a shot off (and parhaps take one of my own team out, or worse still myself! ;)) - as it stands the eyes will be going on and off about 20 times a game. Maybe I will just have to change the way I hold and use my marker during gameplay.
I always liked the way that Sensi was turned on and off from the back of the grip - never caused me a problem in that location.
Emmit
03-15-2004, 07:24 AM
But I think that mode 1 is were most people will keep their marker at.
if you read the manual mode 1 is the only true semi mode on the marker to begin with, therefore the only tournament legal mode on the marker.
pimpinsaylor
03-15-2004, 07:49 AM
if this is the way the retro kit will be i can see people not buying them or the fly and there would be more demand for the sensi guns
I still don't see why I need an ACE on my angel. Now that my angel 4 has been set up correctly, I can fire as fast as I can with Sensi activated and not chop.
I've played a match with a Speed with an aftermarket ACE, this weekend, and it was slow as hell. That's like turning off Sensi and set MROF at 10, you wont chop with those settings either.
tok3n
03-15-2004, 08:33 AM
I hope this problem is something Ken and the other MasterTechs can bring up to WDP.
gomergomes
03-15-2004, 12:59 PM
they would not do that bottom line
Benfrain
03-15-2004, 01:15 PM
No I agree I don't think they would do that purposely, I genuinely think they (WDP) feel this is the best way for the 'eyes off' to work. I just don't agree with them! But maybe it's just me? Does anyone else hold in the trigger occasionaly whilst playing?
I forsee a few people pissing and moaning that Angel eyes don't work because they are chopping during play and they've not realised they have inadvertently turned their eyes off by holding in the trigger for 2 seconds.
Emmit
03-15-2004, 01:39 PM
2 seconds is longer than you guys think...you realize it's 2 seconds pushing the top button to go back to safe...that's how long 2 seconds really is, it's not an instant 2 count. For someone who holds the trigger off the break I could see it being a problem, but other than that I don't forsee anyone ever holding their trigger in for more than a fraction of a second.
Benfrain
03-15-2004, 02:23 PM
Yes, I hear what you are saying Emmit, and you of course are always the voice of good reason ;)
i agree that for the majority of players this is a non-issue. However, I think it is something that will affect certain players badly and I will perhaps just have to adjust my playing practice to cope. I do feel it's a little bit of an oversight though, especially when the grip frame buttons have worked so well in the past. But, only time will tell, it might just be me!
I just feel that with the marker live, the only thing the trigger should be doing is making the marker fire.
If it was a case of turning off the marker and turning it back on whilst holding in the trigger, that would work for me, but I just always keep my trigger pulled in at game on, bumping bunkers and generally, whenever I am not firing.
tok3n
03-15-2004, 02:59 PM
I still think they should change it back to how they turned off sensi. I don't see why not. It would prevent any accidental turning off of the eyes. It worked for sensi, why not eyes?
While it may not seem like a big deal, sometimes you hold down the trigger without even noticing it.
Ken - maybe you could pass that along to WDP?
Emmit
03-15-2004, 03:03 PM
Yes, I hear what you are saying Emmit, and you of course are always the voice of good reason ;)
i agree that for the majority of players this is a non-issue. However, I think it is something that will affect certain players badly and I will perhaps just have to adjust my playing practice to cope. I do feel it's a little bit of an oversight though, especially when the grip frame buttons have worked so well in the past. But, only time will tell, it might just be me!
I just feel that with the marker live, the only thing the trigger should be doing is making the marker fire.
If it was a case of turning off the marker and turning it back on whilst holding in the trigger, that would work for me, but I just always keep my trigger pulled in at game on, bumping bunkers and generally, whenever I am not firing.
Ben I agree with what you're saying to a point. As I said, I can see this being an issue for someone who might hold the trigger off the break etc. I'd have to say however that the large majority of players just don't do this. You're right however as it seems that with this being the way WDP designed the software you might be in the minority and be forced to change the way you play in order to utilize the new software....but then again why change if your Sensi is working, right??? :bounce:
Benfrain
03-15-2004, 03:36 PM
Why change? Are you kidding me? It's new! ;)
No, the only thing with the eyes/Fly that appeals to me as opposed to Sensi is that it will probably work better with a Halo (using a Z baord EvoII at the moment but it's loads slower). I know you aren't a fan of Halo's but they are crazy fast and I have one of the sound activated ones I want to try with a Fly (daren't try it on my 4 in case it buggers the sensi strip again).
Time will tell, it's probably just me and one other guy from outer mongolia that will find this a pain so I'll just have to change the way I do things...if it's worth it :)
ricecrispi
03-16-2004, 03:37 AM
Eyes appeal to the large market and not upper level consumer. Makes sense to me from money stand point.
The 2 secs. Took me longer than 2 secs to type the previous sentence. Make or break a tight game and enough for me to throw away a marker.
Emmit
03-16-2004, 07:35 AM
Eyes appeal to the large market and not upper level consumer. Makes sense to me from money stand point.
The 2 secs. Took me longer than 2 secs to type the previous sentence. Make or break a tight game and enough for me to throw away a marker.
yep....so now why would you be holding the trigger in for those 2 seconds??? remember that turns it off, you want to turn off the eyes in the middle of a game???
pimpinsaylor
03-16-2004, 09:23 AM
Why change? Are you kidding me? It's new! ;)
No, the only thing with the eyes/Fly that appeals to me as opposed to Sensi is that it will probably work better with a Halo (using a Z baord EvoII at the moment but it's loads slower). I know you aren't a fan of Halo's but they are crazy fast and I have one of the sound activated ones I want to try with a Fly (daren't try it on my 4 in case it buggers the sensi strip again).
Time will tell, it's probably just me and one other guy from outer mongolia that will find this a pain so I'll just have to change the way I do things...if it's worth it
I have a tsa halo also it dosent hurt sensi at all
Benfrain
03-16-2004, 09:59 AM
That's because a TSA is just an agitating loader :rolleyes:
Halo B is true force fed and therefore by it's very nature exerts more pressure on the sensi strip than any other type of loader.
KEN CRANE
03-16-2004, 10:11 AM
ok lets clear up a few things.yes it it true that you must hold the trigger down for 2 seconds to turn the eye on and off.this is done to allow for the rule that you cannot touch buttons to turn functions off and on during the game.it is important to be able to turn the eyes on and off incase of a malfunction on the field.2 seconds is quite a long time when you are playing so this shouldnt be an issue.also there are only 4 pressure springs in the fly lpr and not 6 as discussed by sparco.noticed in the manual as i had eluded to in a previous post. the lower lpr pressure is acheived with larger holes in the air passages and not being diverted around the cops sensor.and now you know the rest of the story.
aerotcus
03-16-2004, 10:30 AM
Nice, Thanks for the explanation ken...
Benfrain
03-16-2004, 10:32 AM
Ken, I understand the idea of being able to turn the eyes off during a game, but what about turning them back on? You still have to turn off the marker using the switch at the back and then go from safe to live using the buttons at the back of the grip frame, so how does that help with rules?
Which series rules is it in about buttons at the back of the grip frame? Just curious? The other thing which I find odd is that every other marker I can thing of requires the buttons on the the gripframe to be used to turn the eyes on and off e.g. DM4, Shocker 03, Eblade, Alias Timmy etc
Emmit
03-16-2004, 11:32 AM
Ben while I can't quote the NPPL rule book if it states it I will tell you from personal experience that if I was to see a player start messing with the electronic settings on their marker, including the power switch, I will grab a chrono and chrono you on the spot. It may be an NPPL rule to prevent people from making electronic changes that in the end can affect the velocity of the marker etc.
aerotcus
03-16-2004, 11:47 AM
Or if you could rig up a way to change the debounce settings using the buttons on the back... hmmmm
Benfrain
03-16-2004, 12:07 PM
But if you have done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear...
My point is simply that even if they are the rules (must admit NPPL won't affect me as I don't play in the states and I've not seen that rule in any UK tournies) then the only people who will be able to turn their PDS system on/off during a game without getting pulled for cheating are A4 Fly owners? Can't see that working out can you?
Emmit
03-16-2004, 12:24 PM
Or if you could rig up a way to change the debounce settings using the buttons on the back... hmmmm
see that's the issue with it...if you can change dwell, or debounce (TR on the Angels) then you can change the performance of the marker making illegal in the middle of a game.
ricecrispi
03-16-2004, 03:11 PM
Yeah NPPL is really try to cut back on the cheating from little ones to big ones. They are laying down the law.
Yeah, it's understandable that they use the trigger for deactivating the eyes. My problem is the two secs to hold it down seems very short. 5 secs seems more plausible. I can see it being held down by accident for two secs and ruining a game with a chop once it's turned off.
tok3n
03-16-2004, 04:32 PM
I'd like to see a better way of turning it back on mid game instead of having to turn off the marker completely or go to safe and back to live - both of switch involve messing with the on/off and buttons which, according to what Ken said, is the entire reason for making the eye switching off done with the trigger.
Worr Angel
03-18-2004, 08:43 AM
I'd like to see a better way of turning it back on mid game instead of having to turn off the marker completely or go to safe and back to live - both of switch involve messing with the on/off and buttons which, according to what Ken said, is the entire reason for making the eye switching off done with the trigger.
If you had to turn it off during a game, why would you try to turn it back on? Ignoring the part about holding it in during the break, the only reason you would turn it off is if you had a problem with it. Thus you wouldn't want to turn it back on during that game.
With that said, I agree with most of you that it is stupid the way they designed it.
Benfrain
03-18-2004, 08:50 AM
You might want to pull off your loader, remove offending debris from breech, reattach loader and switch eyes back on.
The point you make however is the exact same argument WDP have made when I asked, which is fair enough.
The problem for me is just that by using the Fly I will have to change many of my current playing habits and being human I naturally resist change :wink: It will be worth it when I get hold of a Joy Division one though :D
There could always be a "Ussage" problem with any Software changes ....
The # of People holding the Trigger down so your marker Wont Fire ?? , has to be Minimial ??? , Why is this Bettor than tot Touching the Trigger ??? . Comparing it to another Brand "your 1/2 Colcked"
I think its Smart Enginering that you can Shut off the Eye`s during Play & NOT alarm any Ref`s that your changing Settings on IT.
Cant wait to Shoot One :)
----------- Big Al
Worr Angel
03-18-2004, 11:06 AM
The # of People holding the Trigger down so your marker Wont Fire ?? , has to be Minimial ??? , Why is this Bettor than tot Touching the Trigger ??? . Comparing it to another Brand "your 1/2 Colcked"
----------- Big Al
For some, you hold it down so it won't bounce while you are running.
ricecrispi
03-18-2004, 09:49 PM
It doesn't matter why you hold it down. ☼☼☼☼ happens. I don't keep in fingers down on the trigger but my girlfriend would or a newb i let borrow it would. A tourney player would never do that but from universal perspective it would happen. I like the idea of using trigger to turn it off but longer duration makes it less likely to turn off by accident. A 1-2 mm trigger pull and 2 secs seems inviting for bad situation. If does become an issue WDP can fix it no problem.
Grpb44
03-26-2004, 11:39 AM
http://www.wdp.tv/manuals/ANGEL_FLY_Manual_WEB.pdf
Manual for fly and I'm trying to see if I can right click save target as... it
Benfrain
03-26-2004, 11:42 AM
Grpb44 - why do you post that link? That's what we've been talking about since the beginning of the thread?????????????
Grpb44
03-26-2004, 10:40 PM
Did you read my post? I was trying to save target as... so I know the progress of the download... I'm on dial up and I don't know if it's a 100 mb manual or 5. I ended up downloading it and it wouldn't work on Adobe:(
Emmit
03-26-2004, 10:46 PM
it's about 3.6 megs, and it works fine in Adobe Acrobat...I just downloaded it (using your link) and opened it to test it...:dunno: I love cable internet:smile:
Grpb44
03-26-2004, 10:50 PM
Yea I know how big it is now but it gives me an error with Adobe... any clues?
Emmit
03-26-2004, 10:59 PM
sounds like your Acrobat reader or your PC, there's nothing wrong with the file, I just opened it.
Grpb44
03-26-2004, 11:02 PM
What version of AR do you have? I've got 4.0, maybe I need to update?
thog94
03-26-2004, 11:15 PM
I'm using 6.0 and it works fine for me.
KEN CRANE
03-27-2004, 07:12 PM
download 6.0
tgaffner
03-27-2004, 08:11 PM
They also spelt approximatly wrong in case you didn't know that. :smile:
Grpb44
03-27-2004, 09:42 PM
As did you, approximately.
Hahaha
06-02-2004, 01:18 PM
Back 2 the eyes thing, why doesn't WDP just make it so a 2 second pull turns the eyes back on?
Benfrain
06-02-2004, 03:42 PM
Still, would be pretty handy if you could turn them back on that way wouldn't it? Easy to implement too :)
ToxicPaintballz
06-02-2004, 05:29 PM
You know if your gun bounces from running something is wrong.
Sparco
06-02-2004, 07:21 PM
Still, would be pretty handy if you could turn them back on that way wouldn't it? Easy to implement too :)
Frazer has expressed to me on numerous occassions that:
"If enough owners want it then we'll consider it." Thus perhaps we should organize an email campaign to have Benfrain's suggestion implemented into the next software update. I'm sure if enough owners ask for this feature it'll be implemented, or at worst... considered.
smasher41
06-03-2004, 12:42 AM
i would like to see an option in the advanced menu, that allows the owner to control the A) option of the top button to activate/ deactivate, or holding the trigger down for x amount of seconds. furthermore, i would like to see B) a sub menu that controls the time in which option A would need to activate/ deactivate the eye.
similar to the mode for intellifeed, and the time it is used. heck, maybe even replace that!
AduBs
06-03-2004, 01:02 AM
holding the trigger down 2 seconds does turn the eyes off sry man but it does....to show you if you don't know take it off safe either with or with out air(don't have paint in the hopper if you do this with air) then hold the trigger down with air it will fire then click trigger it will fire again meaning that the eyes are off because when the eyes are on it will not fire unless thier is a ball present....with no air it will just click and click some more......
hpham1107
06-03-2004, 01:16 AM
if you not using fuly auto mode so you have no point to hold the trigger for more than 2 seconds unless you worry your trigger will falling out if you not hold it...........
Benfrain
06-03-2004, 04:26 AM
Frazer has expressed to me on numerous occassions that:
"If enough owners want it then we'll consider it." Thus perhaps we should organize an email campaign to have Benfrain's suggestion implemented into the next software update. I'm sure if enough owners ask for this feature it'll be implemented, or at worst... considered.
OK Sparco, where do I sign? If you have already spoken to Frazer about the subject how do you feel we best organise this, surely a thread on here (or poll etc) that we can draw his attention to would be more productive than getting him swamped by a load of emails...?
EDIT - OK, is this the kind of thing you think is best?
http://www.angel-owners.com/showthread.php?t=24435
Emmit
06-03-2004, 07:54 AM
holding the trigger down 2 seconds does turn the eyes off sry man but it does....to show you if you don't know take it off safe either with or with out air(don't have paint in the hopper if you do this with air) then hold the trigger down with air it will fire then click trigger it will fire again meaning that the eyes are off because when the eyes are on it will not fire unless thier is a ball present....with no air it will just click and click some more......
what are you rambling on about??? we already know that if you hold the trigger in turns off the eyes...who were you trying to talk to???:confused:
Sparco
06-03-2004, 12:02 PM
OK Sparco, where do I sign? If you have already spoken to Frazer about the subject how do you feel we best organise this, surely a thread on here (or poll etc) that we can draw his attention to would be more productive than getting him swamped by a load of emails...?
EDIT - OK, is this the kind of thing you think is best?
http://www.angel-owners.com/showthread.php?t=24435
I think that's a great start. I have not spoken to Frazer on the issue but I have brought up other possible suggestions in the past. However, this could have been his way to just shrug me off.
It's possible...
Regardless, I think your suggestion is a good one and if enough people show a similar interest then perhaps we can appease WDP.
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