Lpr News

[SquirtGun]

Hi Guys!

I just came home after visiting my local angel dealer and I am pretty amazed.

I asked my angel-tech to set my lpr pressure to 55 (as i don´t have the tool kit). When we screwed in the gauge, the pressure WAS 55psi already, factory set obviously (yes, we did fire a few shots...).

He told me that the younger angels (like my limited edition carbon to denim) are factory set to the lower lpr pressure.

Anyone heard of that before??

What really amazed him is, that my dwell is set to 11, and my mini-reg pressure is about 180 psi and I am still in the high 280s to 290s.

Here is my setup:

Angel Air LP Preset:450psi
Mini-Reg:180psi
LPR: 55
Mid Voluminizer
Dwell 11
JT-Barell set, using .688 base with draxxus rec sport paint (cheap paint, but it´s too cold to waste good paint ;-))

Nick

[Sparco]

Some of your FPS might be due to an exceptionally tight paint-to-barrel match. I've never seen a rec sport ball much smaller than a .688/.689 in my experience with them.

[SquirtGun]

Well, true that. But the balls still fall through the barell freely...

Anyone experience with mounting the small voluminizer on the lpr side of the a4?

This should reduce drop offs at high rofs...

[skuttner]

We got a pair of A4s a few months ago and they were both set to 50psi LPR.

[Emmit]

setting a volumizer on the LPR side will accomplish nothing...

[SquirtGun]

Aaaarrrgghhhh! The Tech told me, that setting a volu on the lpr side will increase the air-volume on the "flowing-air side" of the A4 and this will give it more "breath" for those short, high-rof bursts.

Okay, that´s enough. From now on, I´ll just go and try things and see if they work for me and my angel. *hrhrhrhr*

[Emmit]

think about it logically....why would you want air volume after it's been regulated...what happens when you increase the volume of air? the pressure goes down right? Think about it...a water bottle with air in it is at a certain pressure right...now put that same voume of air into a bigger bottle...as the volume goes up the pressure goes down right...so what did you accomplish by putting 1 liter of air into a 1.5 liter bottle? Think of it that way.

[SquirtGun]

I understand, that 1 liter of air put into a 1,5 liter bottle will lead to a loss of pressure, but doesnt the lpr work differently?

I thought the air keeps flowing through the lpr from the regulator side (200psi) to the exhaust valve side until the pressure on the exhaust valve side reaches the set pressure (55psi in my case). Even if you mounted a 1,5 liter bottle to the lpr, it would fill the bottle with air until the pressure inside reaches 55psi.

If this is not the case, the lpr would have to cut the air flow after letting through a certain air-volume. And I just dont see how it could possibly do that. It´s a simple pressure valve, right?!?!

[Emmit]

the LPR is regulating pressure...think of valve like an on/off switch (god these analogies are getting bad)...you have to flip the switch (or open the valve) for a certain period of time to allow enough pressure to pass through it to shoot a ball out...so if you've increased the volume as soon as you open the valve that volume goes away (you're venting to atmosphere) and then you have to recharge it again before you can reuse it....now which do you think takes longer to fill up...a 1 liter bottle or 1.5 liter bottle??? Think of your end cap as the 1 liter bottle and the volumizer as the 1.5 liter bottle. Do you want to try and fill 1 liter of air 20+ times a second or do you want to fill 1.5 liters of air 20+ times a second?

[SquirtGun]

Gahh... I hope you understand what I write, cause explaining this in english isn´t exactly easy. Especially as my english is totally out of gear.

Okay, i get your point, but think of it the other way around.

When the ram hits the exhaust valve, it only opens the valve for a given time span (dwell), thus only letting through a certain amount of air. So not all the availiable air is used. The amount of air used by a single shot is always the same (set by dwell time and operating pressure).

So let´s assume a single shot uses 0.1 liter of air at 55psi. If you had 1,5 liters of air availiable at 55psi, the overall pressure loss would be far less dramatic than if you only had 1 liter at 55psi. Thus giving you the chance to fire more shots in a shorter period of time without a severe drop off.

Do you get my point?

[vineas]

think about it logically....why would you want air volume after it's been regulated...

The volumizers in the normal place (non-LPR side) are a volume of post regulated air (ie. after the minireg) ...


So let´s assume a single shot uses 0.1 liter of air at 55psi. If you had 1,5 liters of air availiable at 55psi, the overall pressure loss would be far less dramatic than if you only had 1 liter at 55psi. Thus giving you the chance to fire more shots in a shorter period of time without a severe drop off.

This sounds correct to me. Under rapid fire, because a smaller percentage of the volume is used per shot, the pressure doesn't change as much, so each shot will have close to the same pressure -- which means less or no drop off. This is the same reason larger HPA tanks take longer to empty ... a larger volume at same pressure.

However, this discussion is moot if the LPR can keep up to the high ROF that the angel is capable of.

[mrf]

I've Been thinking about doing the same Squirt. I have a F4 and was only able to lower my LPR to 70 or 65 (forgot Now) before getting FSDO (First Shot Drop Off).
My LPR came set at 82 like it says in the manual. I removed 1 shim every weekend I went to play until I got to 60 (I think), That day I had FSDO so I added 1 shim and there it is. This of course was done without changing any other settings on the gun during those weeks. I am still curious about adding the small volumizer to see how it affects my gun though.

[PolecatR1]

think about it logically....why would you want air volume after it's been regulated...what happens when you increase the volume of air? the pressure goes down right? Think about it...a water bottle with air in it is at a certain pressure right...now put that same voume of air into a bigger bottle...as the volume goes up the pressure goes down right...so what did you accomplish by putting 1 liter of air into a 1.5 liter bottle? Think of it that way.

Sorry Emmit - for once you are wrong!! Sorry if that's a bit strong but there is already enough misinformation on this subject.

The air in the volumiser is regulated to whatever the regulator is set to. Makes no difference whether we are talking about the minireg or the LPR. If the reg is set to 200psi and a small volumiser is put on it will fill it with air at 200psi. If a hugh volumiser is used it will then fill it with air to 200psi.

What we are talking about here is a larger volume or regulated air - not putting the same amount of air into a larger volume.

[SquirtGun]

Well under normal operation there is no problem at all. But when it comes to short bursts at very high rofs (22 - 24 bps), the pressure drops, resulting in very inconsistent ball speed. At the same time you can hear a hissing sound coming from the minireg and the pressure reading on the gauge will drop as it is trying to deliver the needed air.

So my angel-tech recommended to mount the small voluminizer on the lpr side, as this might give that little extra buffer needed for the bursts.

[Emmit]

pole...correct that volume of air is regulated to the operating pressure of the marker, the LPR controls the Ram (we've talked about that before) however putting a volumizer on after the pressure has been reduced by the LPR is what we've been talking about...


unless of course I'm running in a completely different direction than everyone else at which point I would like to point out that I started posting this at 6am in the morning :bounce:

[SquirtGun]

*lol*

With this whole pressure, volume, dwell topic, it´s virtually impossible NOT to get things backwards sometimes, no matter what time of the day it is! ;-)

[Emmit]

*lol*

With this whole pressure, volume, dwell topic, it´s virtually impossible NOT to get things backwards sometimes, no matter what time of the day it is! ;-)
I think you may have read what I posted at first...make sure you read what I edited because I had to think about it for a second.

[vap0r]

How about setting the gun up however it works for you!

There is no real "right" or "wrong". If you like the way the marker shoots with or without a volumizer on the LPR side, then go with that configuration regardless of all of the exact science and tech info.

All I want is a consistent marker that does not go down and performs how I expect it to when I shoot it. If I'm unhappy with the performance, I tune to achieve my desired performance not according to what everyone else says.

[SquirtGun]

Yes, you are right. I read the unedited post.

I think there is one thing that confuses me.
The air runs through the front reg an is reduced to 200psi. We all agree on that.

Now what happens?
Are there 2 independent air-systems after the front reg?

Meaning: Part of the air fills the right hand chamber (looking at your marker in shooting direction) behind the exhaust valve at 200psi (=front reg pressure) and waits for the ram to hit the valve. This would then be the air used for propelling the ball.

The other part of the air goes through the lpr into the left hand chamber and is solely used to cycle the angel.

If this is the case, then I totally agree with Emmit. Mounting the volu on the lpr side would then be useless.

Okay, hope we finally figure this out now...

[Emmit]

that's the thing...the LPR reduces your air pressure down to the pressure used to operate the ram (~82 psi on a stock marker) this is why reducing the LPR pressure would also reduce kick (the Ram operating at 55psi vs 88psi reacts differently in the marker) When the Ram forces the Hammer forward it strikes the valve releasing pressure into the bolt area firing a ball....remember the bolt travels on the hammer so when the hammer is all the way forward the bolt is as well....

[SquirtGun]

I think I won´t be able to explain to you what I mean by typing it here.

We´d have to talk in person and have a look at one of our angels.

But as we live a few thousand miles apart, this is not really an option! ;-)

Maybe I will take my A4 apart tonight and see if I can solve the riddle for me.

If I find a solution I will post the pics! ;-)

[Worr Angel]

Now what happens?
Are there 2 independent air-systems after the front reg?

Meaning: Part of the air fills the right hand chamber (looking at your marker in shooting direction) behind the exhaust valve at 200psi (=front reg pressure) and waits for the ram to hit the valve. This would then be the air used for propelling the ball.

The other part of the air goes through the lpr into the left hand chamber and is solely used to cycle the angel.


That is correct. AFter the air leaves the mini-reg it is two independent air channels. THe right channel is for propelling the ball and the left channel is for operating the ram. So now it should be easier for you to believe what Emmit is telling you.

[Jouster]

I've Been thinking about doing the same Squirt. I have a F4 and was only able to lower my LPR to 70 or 65 (forgot Now) before getting FSDO (First Shot Drop Off).
My LPR came set at 82 like it says in the manual. I removed 1 shim every weekend I went to play until I got to 60 (I think), That day I had FSDO so I added 1 shim and there it is. This of course was done without changing any other settings on the gun during those weeks. I am still curious about adding the small volumizer to see how it affects my gun though.
You can avoid FSDO, even with lower LPR pressures, by increasing dwell. Was that not an option?

Jouster

[SquirtGun]

That is correct. AFter the air leaves the mini-reg it is two independent air channels. THe right channel is for propelling the ball and the left channel is for operating the ram. So now it should be easier for you to believe what Emmit is telling you.

Thank you! I took voluminizer and front cap off last night an checked the ports. You are absolutely right. The air from the minireg is split between the two chambers.

As I said, I absolutely agree with Emmit now. :drink: Putting a voluminizer on the lpr side will do absolutely nothing for the performance of the angel.

But on the other hand I am wondering, what the hell the angel tech was talking about.... :wall:

[jester/NoX]

Personnaly, here in Paris (France), the only good Angel tech (yes there is only one who do a good job) put the little volumizer on the lpr after setting it to 60 (and the big on the other side).

[russ]

You guys want to work this one out between you all or do you want me to clear this up?
Its actually quite entertaining

[SquirtGun]

If you clear this up, you´re in for a sixpack of beer!

That is, if you come to austria some day! ;)

[SquirtGun]

All this would be far easier if the exploded views in the manual were a little more detailed! ;)

But I guess they dont want to make all their r&d visible to everyone! :D