PDA

View Full Version : Distance and Accuracy Myths Resolved


Worr Angel
02-13-2004, 03:59 PM
So I am getting really tired of everyone pretending they know the laws of physics and fluid flow by saying that different guns shooting the same 280 fps will have the same accuracy and distance assuming the paint to barrel match is the same. This is so far from the truth and I will use mathematical equations from the books “Fundamentals of Momentum, Heat, and Mass Transfer by James Welty, Charles Wicks, and Robert Wilson”, “Flow of Fluids by Crane”, and “Perry’s by Robber Perry and Don Green” to prove it. I wouldn't consider myself an expert, but I did graduate from college with a chemical engineering degree. Also, I reviewed this with three coworkers that went to different colleges and we all agreed on the following content. So don't try to attack me or my school. I don't think four different chemical engineers would miss the boat on this one. So here goes….

The analysis is for fluid (in this case air, nitrogen, CO2) in pipes, which means your barrel.
Laminar Flow is defined as a flow in which the streamlines remain distinct from one another over their entire lengths (Perry’s 5-6). This means for a given amount of fluid the velocity for every molecule is exactly the same and the molecules are traveling informally and not crossing each other. The air is flowing straight down the barrel.
Turbulent Flow is defined as a flow in which eddies generated in the fluid spread rapidly throughout the fluid, thereby producing a disruption of the entire flow pattern (Perry’s 5-6). This means for a given amount of fluid the velocity varies for the molecules and their direction changes as well. Eddies are areas of reverse flow, which creates excess friction and reduced results.
Reynolds Number is the transition from Turbulent Flow to Laminar Flow as the velocity is reduced (Perry’s 5-6) Generally speaking, for flow in pipes, the fluid is considered turbulent for Reynolds Numbers greater than or equal to 2300. Reynolds numbers less than 2300 are considered laminar. The Reynolds number is dimensionless.

Re = Drv/m

Re = Reynolds Number
D = the pipe Diameter
r= the density of the fluid
v = the velocity of the fluid
m = the viscosity of the fluid

The velocity of a compressible fluid (air or nitrogen) is defined as follows (Crane’s 3-4)…

v = 8.75Y/Sg sqrt(((P1-P2)r)/K)

v = velocity
Y = expansion factor; basically a constant dependent on the pressure drop
Sg = specific gravity; density of the fluid as compared to air, so for this case it is the density
sqrt = square root
P1 = inlet pressure; pressure released into the barrel
P2 = outlet pressure; pressure at end of the barrel (atmospheric pressure)
r= density
K = resistance coefficient; similar to friction

In our velocity equation, several variables are basically constants; they are Y, Sg, P2, r, and K. Thus the velocity is proportional to the square root of change in pressure.

v ~ sqrt(P1-P2) ~ means proportional

Based on the same analysis as above (all variables but velocity are mostly constant regardless of pressure), you can quickly reduce the equation for calculation of the Reynolds number to…

Re ~ v

Taking this one step further gives the following…

Re ~ v ~ sqrt(P1 – P2)

Remember, P1 = inlet pressure and P2 = outlet pressure
Or P1 is the pressure from the LPR and P2 is atmospheric.

Thus, as the pressure from the LPR increases, the velocity increases, and so does the Reynolds number.


Because the velocity and Reynolds number are directly proportional, you prefer lower air velocities impact the paintball so you have laminar flow being the motive force on the paintball. With this type of flow, you get a more uniform force on the ball. Since the force is more uniform you also get less deformation of the paintball and this helps it move through the barrel more uniformly.

In contrast to this is turbulent flow. The air impact on the ball for this flow is everything but uniform. You will have areas of high velocity and areas of low velocity. Because of eddies (reverse flow; looping flow) you can even have area’s of negative or reverse velocity. All this adds up to lost force on the paintball and even deformation of the paintball that not only affects its movement in the barrel but also once it has left the barrel. Imagine the paintball being deformed so that instead of going straight down the barrel it bouncing of the walls of the barrel. This action is what leads to reduced accuracy and distance. This is true even though the ball velocity is adjusted to be the same from gun to gun.

Remember this analysis is about the air velocity on the ball, NOT the ball velocity. Lower air velocity gives you better ball performance. Lower air velocity is reached with lower internal operating pressures.

Hopefully this has not added to the confusion. Feel free to ask me any questions you have.

Edit, This is why I have now bought an angel. They are now operating on low pressure that rivals cockers. Because of this, I believe the A4's are every bit as good of cockers.

boathouse
02-13-2004, 04:00 PM
So what site did you steal that from?

Kris1187
02-13-2004, 05:40 PM
its funny i read your thread, and decided to open it up.....saw all of that and just didnt bother reading. i havea better more easier way

tuned gun+right paint+right bore size barrel= accuracy

plain and simple....



kris

CrazyIrving
02-13-2004, 06:15 PM
What is the Answer :worthy:

:mgfootinm

I Haven't passed Grade ONE yet

AnotherAngelFan
02-13-2004, 06:46 PM
yay thats some good info, how long did it take

Worr Angel
02-13-2004, 08:17 PM
yay thats some good info, how long did it take

Not too long, luckily most of this is still in my head. I have only been out of college for 7 years.

The link below is another place I put it and it is getting more intelligent responses and questions.

http://www.pbreview.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=205875

AnotherAngelFan
02-13-2004, 09:32 PM
well there are more ppl there thats why, or at least i think thats why, anyways its good info thanx

Emmit
02-13-2004, 10:22 PM
not sure how that site is necessarily better comments...you had a lot of people saying that not only did they not understand, but I think I even saw a couple of people just plain out call you dumb.:dunno: we don't get into flames here so you won't get those, you'll still get the people you confused etc...

FYI the pressure being exerted out of your Angel (ie what you referred to as breech pressure) is not 80, it's the operating pressure of the marker. The LPR pressure might be 80, but the LPR and operating pressure are 2 different things.

Worr Angel
02-13-2004, 10:30 PM
FYI the pressure being exerted out of your Angel (ie what you referred to as breech pressure) is not 80, it's the operating pressure of the marker. The LPR pressure might be 80, but the LPR and operating pressure are 2 different things.

Yeah, since I don't know too much about angels I wasn't real sure about that. So what would the operating pressure be? What is the LPR for if it isn't the pressure being released through the bolt (what I am calling operating pressure). I was just going by the manual for the F4. If we hook up this weekend you can educate me on how the angels work. My world has always been automags and Cockers before last night.

As for the other site, I was really more indicating that a few people had asked questions or at least supplied their thougts on the issue. Not that I really thought this site had less intelligent posters.

RangerX
02-13-2004, 10:47 PM
I have the solution for all of your problems... REVEALED!!!

E=MC2

mint.

-RangerX

Emmit
02-14-2004, 09:32 AM
:nono:

the real answer is 42:wink:

Ronin Samurai
03-21-2005, 08:26 PM
he is probably correct, im too lazy to read it. just to randomly add this in. the flatline is the most accurate barrel because it puts backspin on the ball. the next best accurate thing, is the hammerhead barrel, which cause a spin like a bullet that increases the ball tendency to stay ona straight pat and not curve off.

Bigal1
03-21-2005, 09:19 PM
ok, I'll bite. You're a lot closer to college graduation than me. I graduated in 1981 from Ga Tech in Mechanical Engineering. Love fluid mechanics.

Some questions:

First of all, you make the assumption that the density of air is constant. Are you sure that's a good enough assumption? You've probably checked the air density for the pressures we're talking about so I'll take your word if it's a reasonable approximation.

Second, you talk about lower air velocities being desirable. By Bernoulli's law, lower velocity means higher pressure. Then in your editorial comment you state that you like the angel because it has lower pressures. Lower pressures result in higher velocities and vice verse. Regardless, and it's been a while and I haven't pulled out a college text book for any of this but your discussion seems to support higher operating pressures as being better (again, I'm basing this solely on Bernoulli's law)

Finally, do you think that a paintball gun's barrel promotes laminar flow? If you look at the stock 05 speed barrel, it has holes around the perimeter running the entire length of the barrel. It would seem that these would tend to disrupt laminar flow.

sharps990
03-21-2005, 11:50 PM
:nono:

the real answer is 42:wink:

so true so true... nothing like meaningless rants about backwater planets on a rainy day

what a great trillogy of 5 books

he is probably correct, im too lazy to read it. just to randomly add this in. the flatline is the most accurate barrel because it puts backspin on the ball. the next best accurate thing, is the hammerhead barrel, which cause a spin like a bullet that increases the ball tendency to stay ona straight pat and not curve off.

not quite true...the flatline is the barrell with the furthest range, since for it to have backspin it has to be a large bore barrell which turns your gas efficeny and accuracy to crap. it also slows down the ball drasticly durring flight because of the turbulance cause below and behind the ball with the added spin.

Paintballjc
03-22-2005, 12:47 AM
id just like to bring this up..... this thread is over a year old.... :)