Good paint, bad grouping... please read...

[cyeh01]

Today I removed 2 shims and brought the LPR down to about 72psi with 11ms dwell. Did all this with the large volumizer on actually! So hopefully it's accurate...

However I have no idea what the minireg is doing, I turned the minireg velocity adjuster flush like TAG said just for adjusting the LPR, then turned it back probably roughly to the point where it was before (I have no chrono either). I think I'm probably shooting way hot right now though... feels like it.

My problem right now: balls getting squirrelly on me with the stock barrel. I have good bore/barrel match but get bad grouping when shooting slow 1bps. Shoots ALMOST as bad as if I just chopped in the barrel. I've heard great things about the infinity barrel but I've washed it out already and it still won't shoot straight (broke 2 balls in the barrel using Zap's Chronic, by the way those fall right through the barrel without blowing on them). I don't like how the inside of the front of the barrel is not smooth, i think where the air holes are (on the inside of the barrel).

Do you have any suggestions? I don't know if it's the gun or the barrel right now. I am using PMI premiums, a4 bolt, egg2 and the above settings... i was shooting at a 4x4 target from 50-60 feet out and some were not even hitting the target because they were curving left, right, down, up... every which way from Sunday.

please help :(

[ipath]

The paint is to small. You should have to blow a little bit to get the balls out of the barrel. You shouldnt have to blow extremely hard, just a little bit, but not to little. If they are just falling right through, they are deffinetely to small for the barrel. Get some bigga paint man!

[cyeh01]

I had the last 2 hours to ponder over this anomoly at the gym. This is what I've noticed:

1) The PMI premiums fit well, snug, and they will come out when you blow
2) the Zap Chronics fall right through without blowing
3) Ironically I had better initial results with the Chronics before 2 of them broke
4) The balls curve left, right, up and down.
5) I'm pretty sure I'm shooting hot (no chrono though) probably 320fps at least
6) THIS ONE'S IMPORTANT: I recently love juiced the macroline (8 drops) and sprayed it out. And though I removed the barrel when spraying it out, I did not clean the breech.
7) I did not clean out the barrel nor the breech before conducting these tests

Still I expected much more out of the infinity barrel... coming from a well setup cocker with a boomstick, i'm used to accuracy... I really think that the PMI are a GOOD bore/barrel match!

if anyone has any suggestions I'd really appreciate it!

[SarcoBlaster]

cyeh01,

This is a heck of a conincidence, but my Speed was doing the same thing earlier today. I used the settings that Ken Crane posted in the Angel 4 forum so I had to test it out after adjusting the LPR and whatnot. When I fired, the majority of the paintballs flew straight, but several of them hooked left and right for no apparent reason.

Now that you bring it up, I put 2 drops of oil in my macroline last night and cycled the marker about a hundred or so shots and cleaned the breech and barrel out. When I finished shooting today, I noticed that there was some oil in the breech (presumably because I hadn't cycled the marker thoroughly enough so there's still oil coming through).

The paint fits the barrel perfectly, not too tight, not too loose. Also, when I used it on Sunday, it was shooting darts with the stock barrel; no erratic shots at all. I'm pretty sure it has to be the oil and once the excess gets out of the gun, it should return to it's original state. Just a guess though.

[newqlear]

well at times if the barrel is manufactured improperly milled incorrectly or glued at an offset angle it could produce bad shooting charectoristics. The was a good article in apg in which the used a bore diameter tester and found that many "high quality" barrels had defects such as an offset glue joint poor milling or extruding depending on the manufacturing method, while undetectable to the naked eye are there and produce adverse affect also, seperated fill will make paintballs fly lopsided , also if you are suffering poor accuracy ... lower your velocity it is a poor compromise but at times is completely necessary. I look at it like this no distance sucks, not being able to hit a target 20 ft. in front of you is worse. often times a hot shooting gun also produces too much (abnormal) turbulence behind the ball which could also be a big part of your problem.

[Khaotic]

A very hot gun will cause the ball to hook left or right - it might be that all you need is to chrono properly.

Usually when I oil my speed I dry fire about 50 times with the barrel off and then clean any oil in the breach and bolt area as oil in the breach/barrel will have the same effect as shooting after a barrel burst.

[Hep]

newqlear coverd much of what I was gonna say. But if you still oil your rig and the oil is still coming out keep shooting to clean it all out. Thats gotta be your major problem if it's not what newqlear said. Keep shooting it to clear out the oil and see what happens.
Hep

[cyeh01]

Great suggestions. Thanks a million to all that mentioned one thing or another. You've all verified a lot of what I suspected but could not prove nor really trust with my limited experience. Really, hats off to you all. Tomorrow is another day of testing and I shall post results.

In response to the following:

"often times a hot shooting gun also produces too much (abnormal) turbulence behind the ball which could also be a big part of your problem." - how hot does it have to be to cause abnormal turbulence?

"...noticed that there was some oil in the breech..." - I put 8 drops in and expected a cloud of oil to appear when cycling the speed. Surprisingly it did not happen. How does one clean the breach and where exactly should one be wiping? I took out the bolt and noticed a TINY amount of oil as well. Where should I be wiping the bolt? Coming from cockers, my venturi on my cocker needs to be lubed, does the A4 bolt need lube?

"The paint fits the barrel perfectly, not too tight, not too loose." - My experience with my cocker tells me that EVEN if it falls right through it should still be relatively accurate. Relatively = at least will not veer a hard left and almost hit my house when my target is 25 yards directly in front of me. ACTUALLY, i went back and bore tested the PMI premiums through the infinity barrel and to my surprise, 7/10 of them slide through the barrel and 3/10 of them fit snugly and will require blowing. Dunno if that is any indication on good/bad bore-barrel match. My understanding is that the match will affect consistency and accuracy but not so much that they veer hard lefts/rights... am I correct on that? or am i missing something?

Last but not least however, tomorrow I will check my fps, I'm afraid I'm probably putting more stress on the ball than I should and possibly affecting the aerodynamics and risking chopping more often?

I swabbed the area in front of the breech before the barrel with alcohol to dissolve any oils and wiped it off with a moist paper towel. Please let me know if I'm cleaning properly

Here's an off topic question: SHould I have regreased the exhaust and LPR when tinkering with the pressure on the LPR and setting the gauge and volumizers?

Thanks so much for all your inputs! Makes me proud to be an AOG member!

[cyeh01]

2 more small things:

Just how bad is it to tinker with the LPR before breaking in the marker? This is a brand new speed that I basically just lowered the pressure on... what spefically are the side effects of tuning a new speed before break-in? What needs to be broken in exactly?

Since you guys that have been replying are well versed with tuning your speeds. What is your opinion on 55/16 vs 75/11? Is the gas consumption that much more on 55/16? I noticed considerably less kick when I came down to LPR 72-73psi. Thanks again!

[cveale]

cyeh01. Here is what I noticed when I lowered my LPR to Ken's recommended 50 LPR and 17 Dwell. My accuracy and grouping went to hell. I am attributing this to the fact that the stock barrel is a two piece barrel and using a lower LPR and higher dwell will accelerate the ball down the barrel further. Once the ball passed the back piece then it allowed air to move around the ball and throw off the trajectory. This is just a theory, but my accuracy got better as soon as I raised my LPR and lowered my dwell again.

Also, I have had PMI Premium shoot VERY well and also shoot like cr@p. I think it depends on the batch you get. Premium shells are nice, but they can be dimpled easily and ones that have been sitting at the bottom of a stack of boxes or are old can be pretty bad. Just a though. Try more paint before you give up on your settings.

I also use RPS Slam balls when I want to check my accuracy. They have a great seamless shell that is very ridgid and resists dimples. Try em out if you can.

[MoogLe]

just 1 thing i would like to add,

you have probably overlubed your gun, specially since it's brand new, it already had tons of grease in the gun, then you go and drop 8 drops of oil in the macroline, which is about 4 times as much as is recommended to drop in there

it's usually recommended, 2 drops in the macroline, 1 drop in the exhaust hole

i think thos could be contributing to all the oil you found in the breach area which may cause the erratic behaviour

[cyeh01]

cveale, what lpr/dwell are you running now? I am running 72/73 psi 11 dwell. I hear that after breaking this lpr pressure may drop. I'm going to check it again later probably...

when you get a bad batch of PMI premiums shooting like crap do they look like curve balls though? I'm betting still not that bad right?

<2 hours later...>
I've found the culprit. The stock barrel on my speed is a .692 bore.

[MoogLe]

cveale, what lpr/dwell are you running now? I am running 72/73 psi 11 dwell. I hear that after breaking this lpr pressure may drop. I'm going to check it again later probably...

when you get a bad batch of PMI premiums shooting like crap do they look like curve balls though? I'm betting still not that bad right?

<2 hours later...>
I've found the culprit. The stock barrel on my speed is a .692 bore.
the lpr dropping after breaking in, is true most of the time

about the barrel, how could you say you have a good paint/barrel match if you found this out just now?

[cyeh01]

Moogle: 3 balls are not indicative of the bunch. You're absolutely right in the fact that I was wrong about the barrel/bore fit. The first couple balls I put through the barrel did fit snug however which mislead me. I was wrong...

I do have a slight gripe about the barrel however. I was anxious to say good things about the barrel after I had read how good it was. In retrospect however I remember reading how people coudln't come to a consensus on the size of the barrel. I can't say anything about yours but mine is .692 and therefore is not a good match with the PMI Premiums.

I donated a body part and sprung for the Freak Barrel system today. Going back to the PMI Premiums, I was still a little happier with the grouping but not entirely satisfied (I used a .689 sleeve). With my RadarChron I was seeing 290, 291, 289fps. I then went BACK to the Zap Chronics and changed to a .687 sleeve and got much better grouping while shooting 289, 289, 290 fps. I was much happier with the "seemingly better" accuracy.

Morale of the story?
1) Some Infinity barrels are .692
2) As a result of the above, RPS/PMI Premiums are not the best fit for ALL infinity barrels
3) 3 balls are not indicative of the entire bag. They should fit snug and not fall through the barrel. BUT they should not require so much air that your face turns red when blowing through the barrel.
4) Paint larger than medium bore .689-691 is hard to find.
5) Freak barrel systems are damn expensive, I miss my kidney already :( the flexibility of different bore sleeves however = priceless

Moogle, which exhaust "hole" are you referring to when you say to put 1 drop of Love Oil?

[RangerX]

3) 3 balls are not indicative of the entire bag. They should fit snug and not fall through the barrel. BUT they should not require so much air that your face turns red when blowing through the barrel.

ROTFLMFAO.... I know exactly what you mean.

lol lol

glad to hear things seem to be working out with your setup.. I know the feeling when something isn't performing up to par

-RangerX

[MoogLe]

the exhaust hole is the hole at the breech right above the valve

and just curious, where did you find out the bore size of your barrel? was it in the manual? on the box?

[cyeh01]

measured it at General Joe's with the measuring tool that has a name that I just fergot... calipers i think they're called...

[s NIP ers002]

I donated a body part and sprung for the Freak Barrel system today. Going back to the PMI Premiums, I was still a little happier with the grouping but not entirely satisfied (I used a .689 sleeve). With my RadarChron I was seeing 290, 291, 289fps. I then went BACK to the Zap Chronics and changed to a .687 sleeve and got much better grouping while shooting 289, 289, 290 fps. I was much happier with the "seemingly better" accuracy.


Moogle, which exhaust "hole" are you referring to when you say to put 1 drop of Love Oil?

might have somethingto do with the seam of the paint, being chronic has a better seam.

and i believe the exhaust hole Moogle is talking about is the one when you open your breech and its the small ovalish hole in front of the slot for the bolt pin. but im not 100% sure since i just got my speed.

[MoogLe]

might have somethingto do with the seam of the paint, being chronic has a better seam.

and i believe the exhaust hole Moogle is talking about is the one when you open your breech and its the small ovalish hole in front of the slot for the bolt pin. but im not 100% sure since i just got my speed.
yea, that's the one

[Impulse.T3]

i find severe hurricane fits good with the stock barrel, i didn't wanna mess anything up in my speed so when i first got it no lube went near it, just on the oring on the mini reg and the volumizer oring. when i shot it it shot it it shot fine, i put about a case threw it in my backyard just so i could get my trigger pull set right, and i just came from an impulse so i don't really know if i should trust the lube or use grease cus on an imp u can only use dow 33, i am gunna drop a dop of lube into the exust valve and a few drops into the asa so i can get over my fears of the noid messing up, like it would have on an imp....