Understanding my Angel

[Khaotic]

I searched and could not find all the details I am looking for. I also was not too sure where to post this.

I was trying to follow exactly how my Angel works. I have seen the animation that goes around but I still have some questions.

I understand that air comes into the mini-reg at 350psi (say). This air is then directed to both the LPR and the exhaust valve. The air directed to the LPR is reduced to 55psi (say - using Ken's settings) and the air going to the exhaust valve is released (when the hammer hits the valve) to the bolt and out the barrel. The air going to the LPR goes to the solenoid where it is switched between the back and front of the ram on trigger pulls. Right?

A few questions then...
1 - How does the air get from the LPR to the solenoid? I mean it looks as though the entire ram is in the way, it does not pass through the battery side - does it go through a hole in the body?
2 - Does dwell really mean how long the solenoid stays in position "b" meaning how long the ram is forward against the valve for?
3 - If the LPR and valve pressures are separate, could you not run your LPR at 55psi regardless of what input and mini-reg pressure you are at? I mean, why is it that Ken's settings need to applied in whole?
4 - Why is there the need for the ram to be adjustable? Surely the ram could be made to the right size, to fit between the back plate, the bolt and the necessary travel and negate the need to adjust the ram?

Thanks

K

[Emmit]

someone asked a similar questions recently and a good response was given with the thumbs up from Ken, you might have to look around for it tho.

[newqlear]

yeah very good question , if anyone knows of this thread or can find it please pass it on , I would like to read it as well

[MoogLe]

gonna ask ken to take a look at this thread if he doesnt see it first :wink:,

i might only be able to answer the ram part, i think it's adjustable because not all the bolts are made with exactly the same measurements, so if the ram wasnt adjustable you would have a problem with chopping if the bolt wasnt made exactly to WDP's specs

[Emmit]

5 minutes....that all it took me...5 minutes....

http://www.angel-owners.com/showthread.php?t=15968&highlight=angel+operating

[newqlear]

ahah! wasn't being specific enough ... tried how ir3 works and sorted through 5 pages... sometimes just takes the right wording thanks Emmit , wasn't be lazy just worded my search poorly , I blame it on public schools :)

[Khaotic]

Thanks Emmit. That answers questions 2 and 3, but not 1 and 4 of mine.

How about a sticky? If I write a comprehensive explanation from all the threads I have searched and the one you found and any answers to this one, can it be stickied?

[MoogLe]

if i'm right then i answered 4

[Khaotic]

Sorry Moogle, you did. As for Q1,i stripped my old LCD bare and found that the LPR chamber is connected to a tube that runs to the back of the marker. At the back it leads into the bottom of the solenoid. All questions answered - but - there is another one.

The solenoid fits airtight onto the exit of this tube at the back of the marker. Obviously it is airtight otherwise air would leak out of the back plate. My question then revolves around an "Internal volumizer" of sorts. If it was possible to seal the hollow under the sight rail where the solenoid sits, the space around the solenoid would act as a volumizer would it not? Has this ever been tried?

[tylerars24]

you want minimal volume for what the solenoid controls. You want the least amount of space between the spool of the solenoid and the ram. therefore you have less space to fill with air which makes the ram more responsive to the solenoid.

I'm not sure that u under stand what a solenoid is. do you understand what it is and how it works, it might jsut be the way i am reading your post

[Khaotic]

By solenoid I understand the "block" of plastic that fits into the cavity under the sight rail which receives LP air from underneath and then redirects to the front and back of the ram on trigger pulls using the spool? which acts similarly to the 3-way on a "cocker. Right?

[Khaotic]

I agree that the tubes feeding the ram from the solenoid must have minimal volume, but the area feeding the inlet underneath the solenoid could make use of the "internal volumiser" i mentioned above.

[tylerars24]

yea a volumizer for the air going into the solenoid would help a little bit, but its useless thats what the lpr is for. see all a volumizer would do is have more air at pressure ready to rush into the noid. this is basically saying the same thing has turning up your lpr pressure. it would probly drop a few psi off the lpr pressure, do you really want all the machining in there to do it and it would probly look very very awkward.

and a solenoid is far more than a little plastic/aluminum box that sits behinds the bolt. if u find someone thats taking one apart completly sometime at your local field watch them the size and precision of the parts used in them is mind boggling. to a point its not like its a hand made micro chip or ne thing

[MoogLe]

it wouldnt look awkward the way he's suggesting it,

all he's suggesting is to make the sight rail air tight

[tylerars24]

yea that wouldn't look awkward but then its not very high flow so theres really now reason to do that i guess. its not something id pursue but hey what ever floats your boat right?

[Khaotic]

I see sealing the sight rail as achieving the same as putting a volumiser on the front of the gun, just now it is on the other side of the tube feeding the soleniod.

I did not mean to simplify the soleniod's construction - it is amazing.

[tylerars24]

the difference between the volumizers on the front of the gun and where urs would be i think. i pretty sure that teh front ones are un regged by the lpr there for higher pressure/faster flowing

[MoogLe]

yea, they wouldnt have the same effect

[Khaotic]

tylerars24....I dont mean to drag this out, but I dont understand 100% what you mean "teh front ones are un regged by the lpr there for higher pressure/faster flowing"

Surely as the spaces we are referring to (the LPR chamber, the extra volume the volumiser adds and space under the sight rail) are "linked" by the small tube in the body, adding extra volume to any would have the same effect?

[Osmoosi]

The bottom of the space under the sight rail is the sealing surface for the solenoid. The plastic part under the solenoid is the manifold which has open ports for the exhaust pressure.

If you seal the area under your sight rail, it will prevent the marker from working properly. The exhaust pressure would build up until it's the same level as your LPR pressure and that'll stop the ram from working (no pressure difference).

The gas will escape all around the marker as the solenoid chamber (space under the sight rail) is more or less open to the gripframe as well. The expelled gas per shot is rather small and won't usually even be noticeable as it is exhausted all around the marker. The air assist mods which were popular some time ago used the exhaust ports of the solenoid for the air blast. It's mistimed for optimum operation but at least had a mental effect.

[RonnyMcDYO]

If you want to see how a solenoid works get your hands on one of the LED solenoids. Those things are huge, and you can see exactly how they operate. Mind you its hard to imagine were the air goes and blah blah as you cant see inside the whole noid, but it gives you a much better idea then the current very small ones do. I think one myth about angels is that they are so delicate and you cant take them apart or you will break them. These guns when you take them apart are very simple in design, and the parts themselves arent that complex. I even took apart one of the RAM's re assembled it and it works fine, same with the LED solenoid. I wont touch the new noids though, they are very small and im sure that the parts are easy to lose.

If you dont know how air pressure works here is a quick little physics lesson. Air will move to try and and bring the pressure in its surroundings to an equilbrium. Not sure if I worded that correctly, did the best I could. So thats why by adding shims to your LPR you are decreasing the space inside the LPR, therfore forcing the air to increase the pressure. And the noid has a small piston inside of it, when activated the piston moves re directing air pressure to the ram, forcing air in the back end, and since the air is trying to get out, the ram moves forward, then the air is pushed back in the front and vice versa, back the ram goes. I dont know the exact calculations for air pressure, and volume and stuff, but ive got a good idea how it all works. Hope that helps with trying to figure out how the gun works.

[Emmit]

well there's a lot more to a solenoid valve operation Ronny...but we don't want to confuse the masses by talking about currents, and flow directions etc...

[thog94]

well there's a lot more to a solenoid valve operation Ronny...but we don't want to confuse the masses by talking about currents, and flow directions etc...

Thank you Emmit, there's enough confusion on here already. The basics seem to work for now... :headoff:

[Emmit]

oh c'mon Thog...let's bring up directional control valves, proportioning valves etc...you want 3 ways? 4ways? what you wanna talk about? I got to refresh my memory on Nuclear power plant operations a few days ago, and I'm itching to release some of these brain cells back into nature (maybe they need some wheat, hops and barley for growth and nourishment:dunno: )

[Khaotic]

Thats it Emmit, bring on the juicy bits. :D