Lowering Minireg Operating Pressures by Rearranging Spring Stack

[C]-[iLDe]

I was just thinking about how most Speed owners who didnt own adjustable tanks had to get an aftermarket inline reg, a third reg or an LP tank in order to get their markers down below 300 fps while using an 800psi preset.

Now, thinking in terms of the A4, will this still be necessary? It seems absurd to spend over a grand on a marker just to have to buy aftermarket parts, regs or tanks to get it to function properly.

If WDP released a LP marker, why on earth didnt they just make the minireg run low enough to work with the marker in the first place?

Im wondering if there isnt some way to lower the range of operating pressures on the minireg by switching around the spring stack or adding/removing springs? Would this allow it to drop 800 psi to an input pressure of 200 psi or lower? Seems like it should be possible.

It would save people some cash in the long run if they could just alter their A4 miniregs to work properly instead of having to replace parts. If anyone has any insight on this, id love to hear it.

[Emmit]

actually even Frazer came out and said you could use any tank you wanted on the Speed, you just had to adjust your dwell and a few other things accordingly.....you won't achieve the low pressures possible by using a LP tank, but you will still be able to use your current air system.

[slapshot]

Great Question on the Mini-Reg. I was faced with the same scenario, and emailed Frazer. He said that my Warped Sportz 68/4500 was generating too much pressure for the Mini-Reg to control. I was shooting around 300 with my Dwell set at 10 and my velocity turned in all the way. I purchased a CenterFlag Reg which was 200-700 psi, and put my dwell back to 12, and now I can adjust my FPS. This cost adjustment was $109.00. Since I was new to owning an Angel, I was unaware that the standard reg could not handle it.


Slapshot

[C]-[iLDe]

I would be willing to experiment with the spring stack and/or dwell settings before Id be willing to drop another CENT on regs or tanks, especially after buying a $1400 marker.

Anyone else have any info on this?

[warpedx]

I remember somebody posted something about changing the output pressure of their preset. The opened the reg and removed a shim or spring in there. I think it was on a newer PMI PE though.

[Emmit]

that would be the new PMI tanks that you can change the pressure springs or something of that nature....

[Sinner]

Childe, realistically the answer to your question about why WDP designed the minireg as they have is that with a preset you are using a low-end air system with a high-end marker (albeit one with a mid-range price).

The minireg on the Speed has been matched to the engine of the marker, designed & tuned to the optimum input for the optimum performance. A 800+ psi fixed output reg is simply not optimum for the Speed.

[C]-[iLDe]

Well thats certainly an interesting perspective on the issue. Unfortunately, Im not sure i buy that at all.

800+ psi output tanks (PMI Pure energy in my case) have been in wide use for far too long for me to suddenly believe that they're subpar, low end air systems - especially considering that the Speed and now the A4 have been released within less than a 6 month timeframe. I just cant believe that presets have become obselete that quickly.

Whats more, WDP designed the LED, LCD and iR3 to be perfectly compatible with presets and perform up to par. Why the sudden change? If the preset was such a low end system, why bother to make markers compatible with 800 psi output in the first place? The logic escapes me.

Also, the minireg on the Speed/A4 has not been matched to the engine of the marker; almost the opposite actually. It the reg was matched, it would be sufficient to regulate any tank's output down to the necessary input pressure. Whats more likely is that WDP - fow whatever reason - simply decided not to change this aspect of the marker from previous versions. I dont know why.

[Nasty Little Hobbit]

I have to agree with you even thought I am looking into getting an A-4 through my new position. If SP can set it up so you can use one the "inferior" air systems and still have the gun run at 180psi why couldn't WDP, a much higher quality company" come up with a new reg for these new guns. Wht go to all the trouble of designing so much new stuff into these wondeful markers just to put the same old reg on them. SO, in order to get to the operating pressures they are advertising a low pressure tank needs to be used? That should be indicated somewhere in all the info that is being thrown out to the public.

The original question intrigues me in many ways. This could be a way to make use of the higher flowing bolts and valves that are available.

[Hep]

Just get a Nitro Duck X Stream reg that screws in that is adjustable or something equivalent. Back in the day all systems where adjustable and then everyone went to pre-sets that screw in. So its back to basics so to speak. And having to ditch your non-adjustable $100-250 tank for a newer one is just the circle of life. Not a horrible compromise in my opinion if you really want this new marker. Like everything else it has a price so sell it. But I do see your side Hal but you gotta roll with the times to keep up it seems.
Hep

[slow]

Childe - it seems like it would be pretty simple to change the spring washers around to make a stronger stack to act against a higher imput pressure. The standard configuration from the manual has the spring washers arranged: bottom - ))(())) - top. Switching them around may make the stack stronger or weaker. Probably the best bet would be to add a spring washer to the bottom. Flipping washer around may not neccessarily make the stack stronger.

BTW - I thought about this too but my head hurt so I opened up the wallet and bought a WGP adjustable.

[C]-[iLDe]

from Scott Anderson of TAG
Hally,

Yes this issue will pass over to the A4's as well. Both the SPEED and A4 have increased milling to the internal air passages to create a low pressure operating ANGEL. As for turning around or adding spring washers to the minireg, we will do some testing and let you and all others know if this is possible. All preset tanks we have either used or seen have had the regulators of the tank rebuilt with a low pressure kit. Contact your tank's dealer and see if there is a rebuild LOW pressure kit you could install yourself.

Thanks and Good Luck... Let us know if you need further assistance,

Scott Anderson

Scott's reply to the same question. I emailed TAG directly with the issue. Unfortunately his answer was inconclusive. Looks like I have no choice but to try it myself when i get my A4.

[Nasty Little Hobbit]

This is without a doubt the best board I have every been on. This thread is a perfect example of why, the quality of the information and the willingness to help each other and discuss things in a logical manner.

[russ]

I am pretty sure I submitted a post when the speed first came out with how to add 1 spring packet, and rearrange your minireg stack to accomodate higher preset tanks.

[C]-[iLDe]

Found it russ! Thanks man, i appreciate it! :clap:

Originally posted by russ
...if you change the spring stack (of course this is taking away from the original design) It is possible to alter the range of the output of the minireg.

Original spring configuration 6 springs up/down/up/down/up/down

Altered configuration 7 springs
up/up/up/down/up/down/down

With an input of 850psi, the output range will go from 150psi-500psi...

[Hep]

Cool Hal let us know when you get your A4 and if that arraingment works.
Hep

[GAV WA]

The spring stack that you mentioned will almost definetely work in allowing you to drop pressure far enough but the problem with the arrangement you showed is that you are removing all the movement in the stack. What this causes is that they don't allow the valve to open enough when pressure on the low pressure side drops and so when you stand on the trigger you get drop off as air cannot flow fast enough through the valve.
If you are getting it down to almost under 300fps then I would be more inclined to put a small shim in with the packs so that you have the minimum effect on their opening and closing.

[C]-[iLDe]

I dont see how restricting the minireg's spring stack movement affects the valve at all, could you elaborate? Also, are you taking into account that the Speed/A4 minireg piston is longer than the standard LCD/iR3 minireg piston?

You may have a point but with my A4 still in England somewhere there's no way i can test for dropoff or anything else; I can only theorize.

[GAV WA]

the Spring stacks control the opening and closing of the valve in the minireg. The A4 isn't even available yet so I wouldn't be worrying about things like this yet. But If you want to check what I was saying about the spring stack pull apart an adjustable air reg on a tank and then put all the springs in the same way (I know you weren't saying to do this arrangement, but will achieve the same just more obvious) and then hook back up to a marker and see what happens. All Springs have an eliptical pressure curve, even linear springs have a curve just flatter, by stacking the springs this way you sharpen that curve causing the pressure of the spring stack to increase quicker over a smaller amount of travel. To explain it more fully would take a while and I don't feel like drawing diagrams and such, just wait till you get one then see if there is a problem.